Doubt vs. Unbelief: Helping Young People Navigate Faith Challenges

CHIP: Well thank you very much, Dave. This is a very, very special program. We spent the last month talking about: we all have doubts; we all have struggles. And of course, those that are parents and grandparents, pastors, the next generation is certainly near and dear to our heart. And so as I was praying this through, I thought, who could I invite that works with young people that really is connected to what's really going on to say, “Hey, could you help us really understand what's going on in the lives, especially of younger people and where their struggles are, where are their doubts?” And so I want to welcome Sean McDowell. Great to have you with us.

SEAN: Chip, this is such a treat. I've been looking forward to this.

CHIP: Well, thanks for being with us. I did not grow up as a follower of Christ and I was a skeptic. And your dad's book, More Than a Carpenter and then Evidence that Demands a Verdict, were ones that I pored over. And, like, could this really be true in my, kind of, young struggle? So, it's great to have you with us and maybe tell us, I know you're a professor at Biola, I've watched your podcast – give me just a little bit of your background and your heart and why you do what you do.

SEAN: Yeah, I grew up in a small town in San Diego, even though my parents were missionaries and still are with CRU, I had no intention of becoming an apologist, being a professor, or following in my dad's footsteps. At one point, I thought I was going into politics. Another time, a lawyer. I thought I was going to play in the NBA, probably in junior high. Like, I just had no intention of going into this for a lot of reasons.

Really, one thing that shifted, there's a few pieces of this story, but my senior year at Biola, I had a class with J.P. Moreland, who's still to this day one of the leading philosophers, not just Christian philosophers in the world on the philosophy of mind. And it was on apologetics. And I thought, Well, this will be easy, I grew up in an apologetics family. I had no idea what I was stepping into, Chip, because my dad, like you mentioned the two books, More Than a Carpenter and Evidence That Demands Verdict, those are historical apologetics. J.P. does philosophical apologetics, the argument from consciousness, intelligent design. I heard this stuff and it was like, Whoa, this is so interesting.

And so ended up wanting to become, I wanted to work with students, I got that love from my parents. And I thought, You know what? I could teach in a youth ministry program, but you only get students an hour or two a week. I'm going to teach you to Christian school, have students three hours a week, get weekends and summers off to speak and write. And for twenty-one years, full-time and part-time, I've been teaching Bible. And this is the first year I'm actually not doing it part-time. I am a full-time apologetics professor.

So I guess to sum it up, I'm a communicator. I have a YouTube channel, I'm on Instagram, I write books, I speak and teach. And my heart is evangelism, apologetics, equipping and reaching the next generation.

CHIP: I want to just jump right in because we've covered, some of the intellectual issues, emotional issues, everything from, does Christianity work? Is it believable? But one of the things we wanted to frame everything around was this whole idea of doubt. And some people, think that any doubt you might have about God or His Word is negative. But from your perspective, what's the role of doubt? How does that play out in the development of our faith?

SEAN: I'm a natural doubter, Chip. I doubt everything. If I buy a car, I'm like, Well, maybe I should have bought this car. If I go on a vacation, I'm like, Well, maybe I could have gotten a better deal. I just doubt everything. I think I'm wired that way.

And I have a pastor friend years ago who I think has the gift of faith. And at this point, he lost his job, was looking for another one. And I'm like, “Hey, what are you going to do?” And he was like, “You know what? God is going to provide.” And I'm like, “How do you know? Maybe God wants you to suffer.” And he just looks at me and he’s like, “Sean, God's going to provide. Don't worry.”

And I remember, like, looking at that going, man, why don't I have that faith? And it hit me sometime later, I thought, you know what? If I had that kind of gift of faith as he did, I wouldn't write seven-hundred-page books defending the truth of Christianity. I wouldn't do a PhD dissertation tracing down the stories of whether or not the apostles died as martyrs to see if we could trust their testimony. It's doubts that drive me to ask questions, drive me to go in. So my friend needs me to do this and I need his strength of faith.

So people are going to have different kinds and levels of doubt. Now in our age of social media, I really don't know how anybody doesn't at least have some doubt. I don't know how it's possible with so many smart people who have, for lack of a better term, ministries all over TikTok, all over YouTube, all over trying to evangelize and disciple people out of their faith. I don't know how everybody doesn't at least have some doubt, but one key point I would make that's really important, doubt is not the opposite of faith. Unbelief is. You can believe something and have doubts. In a sense, to have doubt is just to not be one hundred percent certain that something is true.

CHIP: Right.

SEAN: But it's important we don't assume doubt is unbelief, which is why I think Jude 22 says, “Have mercy on those who doubt.” It can be painful. It can be difficult. It can be an existential crisis, which I, in part, went through.

So the last thing I'll say on this is when my students often say to me, you know, “I'm having doubts or questions,” I'll respond by saying, “Good for you.” (CHIP: Huh.) I just want to let them know, “Okay, you realize this matters.” “And you're using your mind, you're asking questions. Let's dig in and see if we can figure this out.”

CHIP: That is so helpful. Doubt is not the opposite of faith. Unbelief is. I don't think most people think of it like that. I remember, um, I didn't grow up as a follower of Christ. Right after high school, trusted Christ, got involved in the discipleship ministry, And then I really had a hunger for God. And then I decided one summer, mostly so I could play in a summer basketball league and be ready for the next year of college basketball, it really wasn't about school, but I stayed on campus. And I remember something happened. It was just a flash of, What if this isn't true? What if this is just some college emotional experience?

Now, God really changed my life, my relationships. And so, I had this experiential reality. And then I had, looking back, probably extreme spiritual warfare. But it was like darts of, You're deluded. You're crazy. None of this is true. And I went through a summer without emotional connection to God, if you know what I mean.

SEAN: Wow.

CHIP: And choosing to say, What's it look like to trust God when all these thoughts are going into my mind and I don't know what to do with them? Anyway, any insight on that person who is saying, I don't know if this is true.’”

SEAN:  Well, one point I want to make is I want to compare and contrast your story with the person in the Bible who we associate with doubt, namely Thomas. Thomas didn't say, “Gosh, I have questions. I'm not sure. I'm wrestling with this. I don't know.” Thomas said, “I will not believe unless I see and touch the nail marks in His hand and in His side.” We equate doubt with total rejection of the faith. That's what we have to reframe. You had an experience of doubt, not “I reject this. I will not believe period unless You prove it to me empirically.”

So some of the way we approach this, I think, needs to be re-shifted. I had a similar experience as you Chip. And for me, interestingly enough, I was also playing college basketball. I didn't know you're a college basketball player. We have to have that conversation sometime. And I was at Biola of all places, mid-90s. And I got online and started fishing around trying to figure out what this internet thing was and came across these atheist sites that basically started some of the atheist web responding to my dad's content in Evidence That Demands a Verdict.

CHIP: Wow.

SEAN: Chapter by chapter, doctors, lawyers, historians, philosophers. And that's the first time the weight hit me like you and I thought, Oh my goodness, what if I'm wrong about this?

CHIP: Yeah.

SEAN: It wasn't just intellectual. It was emotional. I felt it. Like it was heavy because I realized what's at stake. Well, I figured I had to tell my dad, this great apologist and, you know, in case some people don't know him, just so people have context: he's spoken to twelve hundred universities, written a hundred and sixty books, hands down, one of the most influential evangelicals in the past half century. And he's an apologist. And this is my dad. And I'm about to tell him that I'm not sure I think this stuff is true.

So just setting the table for people. And we're in Breckenridge, Colorado. And I just said, “Hey, can we go to coffee or tea or something like that?” And we sat down as best as I could remember, Chip. I wish I had a video of it. I said something to the effect of, “Dad, you know, I'm not really sure I'm convinced Christianity is true.” He didn't freak out. He looked at me and he goes, “Son, I think that's great.”

And I remember thinking, Did you even hear what I just said? And what he communicated to me was, you know, you can't believe this just because I believe it. You’ve got to decide and follow what you think is true. He said, “Don't reject Christianity, just, unless you're really convinced that it's false. And you know, your mom and I will love you no matter what.

CHIP: Wow.

SEAN: And I really don't want to over dramatize that, but it was a significant moment for me. And that's what I encourage parents to do. Don't freak out. Don't get defensive. It probably has nothing to do with your parenting or lack thereof.

And one of the most interesting studies, Chip, this was done on Millennials, Sticky Faith by Kara Powell out of Fuller Theological Seminary, they said people don't leave the faith because of doubts. They do because of unexpressed doubts. People don't leave primarily because of questions, but because of unexpressed questions that foster like a cancer.

So in many ways, it was just being able to get it off my chest and have my dad not freak out. It's like, I think about, like, when I'm on the airline and I look at the steward, you know, when we're shaking a little bit, I've traveled my whole life and I still get a little antsy. If I look at the steward and they're like freaking out, like I'm going, boy, we're going down. But they've been trained to look calm and collected and put you at ease. That's the response when kids doubt.

My dad was like, “You're going to be fine. If you seek after truth, you're going to end up following Jesus, I think. And I love you no matter what.” So he gave me space, reassured me of my love, didn't freak out. He offered to help me make sense of these, but honestly I needed somebody else outside of my dad. Like in movies sometimes you just need a mentor. So people like William Lane Craig and J.P. Moreland to answer some of those philosophical questions. And ultimately I obviously came back or stayed within the faith, I guess you could say.

CHIP: You know, I've come from most of this from a pastoral perspective and, talking with those parents that literally are, “What did I do wrong?” And the world is falling apart. And their fear often drives them to start shoving information in front of their student or young adult which actually produces exactly the opposite response of what they're really hoping for. And it's the opposite of what you described, And I say that to those listening, if you could lighten up and trust God in the midst of this and give, God some room to work in your, whether it's a teenager or young adult or college student.

One of my four kids went through a real challenging time. He's really, really smart, one of those kids that didn't have to study and did great on the test, which made his fraternal twin brother absolutely sick, you know, he would bust it and work and work and work and they'd both do well. But it was like one would just show up and not study and get, you know, two points higher than his brother. And he went through a time where he just, he looked at me and he said, “Dad, I actually really like you as a dad. I just wish you weren't a Christian dad.”

SEAN: Oh my goodness.

CHIP: And it wasn't like, oh, two weeks later, everything was fine. He went on a journey of questions and doubts, that just led to some really challenging times. Fast forward, it was three, four years later. It was not an easy or short-term time. And it kind of came to a crisis and we had to figure out, you know, where are we going to go with this? And he spent a couple days, as I remember it, he might remember it a little bit differently. I'm learning the older I get, we both have the same experience, but it is recorded very differently…

SEAN: Sure, sure.

CHIP: …or can be very different. So I just want to honor him in that. But I remember him coming out of his bedroom, at least it seemed to me, after about two days. I could see this change. And at some point later, when you could just really tell that he'd reestablished his faith, I kind of asked him, what happened? And it was really interesting, because you know, when you're a pastor, he's heard hundreds of my sermons…

SEAN: That's right.

CHIP: …perhaps thousands, right? You know, I bet there was one that was really, and of course, none of that was the reason. And he said, “Well, Dad, to be very honest, I really struggled. And I wrestled.” But he said, “You know, I just, I've watched you and mom and Jesus is so real to you two. And you and mom, you're first generation Christians and you're just the same at home as you are at church. I asked Jesus to be as real to me as He obviously is to you.”

And I just want to kind of say maybe to some of those parents, grandparents, or even some pastors that there's few things that we'll do to help our kids walk with God more than just with all of our imperfections, just live it out. You know, they actually do observe us. And just because they go through some seasons where they doubt or struggle, one of the greatest apologetics is the love of God and the light of God being lived out in very imperfect people like a mom and dad. And that has been a great hope and encouragement for me that I've shared with a lot of parents going through rough times.

SEAN: That's an amazing story. Thanks for sharing that. That line just jumped out to me, “I wish you weren't a Christian dad.” I mean, every bone or nerve inside of me would want to get defensive and get angry and react and feel offended. Like that's just a natural human response. But if we ask ourselves, What's best for our kid in this situation is just to listen…

CHIP: Yeah.

SEAN: …And say, “Tell me about that. What do you wish that I was? Why do you wish I wasn't a Christian?”

CHIP: Yeah.

SEAN: ”What do you understand that Christianity is? When did you first have this thought that you wished it were different?” I mean, just be curious and lean in. And it sounds like that's what you did.

So I meet, when I, especially when I go travel and online I get emails, I was at this event recently and this dad brought his daughter over who was questioning her faith and he goes, “Tell her that the Bible is true. Explain it to her. Give her the evidence.” And I'm in this awkward situation where I just didn't want to make the dad look stupid in front of his daughter. And as best I can remember, I just said something tell me your story. Tell me who you are. Tell me what you believe. Tell me how you got there.” And just listen and understand. That's at the root of so much of this. So, great stories, powerful stuff, Chip.

CHIP: It was quite a journey. And when he said that, tears just started streaming down my face. And it was just, it was so, painful on the one hand, and yet I had lived where he lived. I didn't grow up believing in Jesus. And so, you know, it was just probably one of those times where my lack of response was probably the best thing I could have ever done other than it broke my heart.

SEAN: Of course.

CHIP: But, you know, as we're talking here, a lot of things boil down to real personal relationship. And as I heard you: be curious, ask questions, find out where did this start? Give people some space. And I'm going to write this down for my pastoral counseling in the future, your words, “Don't freak out.” That was a great line.

As you're with young people all the time now, what are the challenges where did the struggles come up, and what's been the most effective way to help them develop their own faith? Which really is the goal here. We're not trying to figure out how as parents or pastors or grandparents to brainwash our kids to get in a little box and believe this or believe that. It's to meet the living God and know emotionally and intellectually and volitionally: this is true and I believe it for me.

SEAN: Yeah, that's a good two-part question. Let's start with the first part that you said about the challenges that they face and then get to what the positive steps are that we can take biblically. I think there's different kinds of challenges. I think in this generation, of course, we're hearing about anxiety and depression and loneliness. So mental health issues in some ways affect the way we process truth. It becomes like a filter through which we read the Scripture, sometimes positively, sometimes negatively.

There was just an article last week in the New York Times, talking about how since 2019, the percentage of “nones” has flatlined. So we've heard since the 90s, the N-O-N-E-S, those who are not religious has been increasing, and yet it's flatlined. And yet this article said, and they were citing Ryan Burge, who's one of the experts on this, that as older generations die out and Millennials and Gen Zers become more of the population, the shift towards nones and secularism is going to increase substantially. And I think he's probably right.

The thing that he said was, he cited, this is one piece of it,s but they said just the Church abuse scandals, they said a lot of younger Christians, maybe thirty and below and non-Christians are looking at the Church saying, “Are they necessarily more moral than I am? Are they good? Are they really living differently?” And if they're not, this is back to your point earlier, Chip, like if we're not living it and modeling the life of Christ, it doesn't matter what we say, what apologetic we give. There's issues of just our witness in this frazzled, polarized, angry culture. I think questions of science and faith still bubble to the surface, especially with artificial intelligence and the soul and the afterlife and evolution, like science is still such an authority in our culture that that comes.

And then I think questions about just the exclusivity of faith. I mean, this generation, I was talking yesterday with my students at Biola how when I was in high school, it was like, everyone was talking about tolerance. Now it's diversity and inclusiveness. And yet the gospel, you know, some think it's a white man's religion, whether true or not, they think it's not diverse. And also, it seems exclusive, the opposite of inclusivity. So that's exploded with this generation in a way that's different with previous generations, arguably, at least at this stage of development.

I think some of the intellectual questions are things like, I mean, I just get questions all the time about sexuality everywhere I go. The LGBTQ conversation. And it's not just what does Romans 1 say about this. So what does the science show about whether you're born this way or not? It's, “I have a friend who's this way. And can I really love Jesus and love them? Am I a bigot? How do I navigate this?” Like those are real questions that I think this generation is wrestling with. And so we’ve got to walk them through what Scripture says, why it says it and why it's good for them.

I'm going to say at the root of the Christian ethic is to love our neighbor. Why? Because they're made in the image of God. This is a Judeo-Christian belief. Gay or straight, regardless of sexual orientation, you have infinite value because you reflect our Creator. So it is the Christian ethic Jesus gave, you know, the Samaritan, about loving those who might be different. So let's start there and ask what does it look like to love our neighbors, LGBTQ or not?

Well, then let's ask the question, some of this really, I would take a step back, is a question of biblical authority. I really think the root is, do we take authority from culture, from our feelings, from experience, ultimately from science, or from Scripture? So in some ways we've got to come back to the question of what do we consider authoritative and why? Which is why with this generation, we not only have to teach them what the Bible says, but why it says what it says.

So my twelve-year-old son, we were just talking, we do breakfast together in the morning when we can. And I've been talking with him, either gospel of John, or I've been talking with him about this book on how to talk to your kids about sex. And I just said, “What is God's design for sex?” He gave an answer for it. And I just said, “Why do think God gives that design?”

And I listened to him and I said, “You know, God's design is to protect us. When we step outside of God's design, there can be emotional hurt. There can be relational wounding. There can be things like STDs when we step outside of God's design. But you know, positively,” I said, “Buddy,” you know, he's twelve, I said, “do you think it's important for a kid to have a mom and a dad?” He said, “Yeah.” I said, “Do moms parent differently than dads parent?” He said, “Yes.” That's God's design and that's good.

So one of the reasons God says marriage is one man and one woman in a committed relationship for life is so kids grow up in the optimal environment where they have a mom and a dad and the sociological research shows that that's the environment in which we flourish most.

So that's a few points that I would make and the “T” is different than the “L” and the “G” and the “B.” Speaking to a Christian kid is different than speaking to somebody who's a non-Christian. But I just want to pull back and say God is the one who gave us the ethic of equality. God is the one who gave us the ethic of love your neighbor. God is the one who gave us the ethic that we have value because we are human.

But that same God designed marriage and He designed our bodies to operate a certain way. And when we follow the owner's manual, which is according to God's design, we actually flourish as human beings most.

So these are some of the questions this generation wrestles with as a whole. The best thing I found is when I have a young person front of me is I don't want to assume they're wrestling with A, B, or C. I just want to ask questions, listen and figure out the heart of what they're dealing with, and try to address that if I can.

CHIP: My background was a lot in psychology, graduate school and undergraduate. And when you do the research, you know, part of the completely secular research about what kind of environments people thrive in and, you know, what helps them, you constantly come back to what the Scripture teaches about what a man needs to be and cherishing and caring and protecting and loving and what a woman needs to be and what they need to do and the mutual submission to one another and creating this environment where, kids can flourish and feel loved and valued.

And part of the challenge is there's not a lot of those kind of models, and that the family has broken down in such a way that a lot of people are looking to social media or the culture to try and figure out what's up, what's down.

What's your counsel to that couple who says, “We really want to raise our kids in a way that honors God, we know they’re being bombarded by social media, “We don't want to be too strict because if we say no, no, no to everything, and on the other hand, there are real dangers. Sean, you're an apologist, you're a dad, you work with students. Please give me some wise counsel about raising my kids in a way that will help them flourish.”

SEAN: Going back to at least 1972, and this comes from Christian Smith, a sociologist at Notre Dame, in his book, Handing Down the Faith, he says the data consistently shows that parents have the most significant influence on the faith of their kids. Now Netflix and TikTok and the educational system and Hollywood has an influence, but not the same level of influence parents can and do have.

So what does kind of the data and Scripture show the best chance of passing on our faith? And by the way, there's no formula to do this. You can do everything right and kids have free will. And I was thinking to those parents earlier when you said you wept about your son and what he shared with you.

One of the things I tell parents, I say, “You know, if your kids are not following the Lord, remember God's heart is more broken than your heart or my heart could ever be.” Jesus wept over Jerusalem. So that's one place to start with. God is pursuing and seeking them in ways we can't and won't understand until the story's already done.

But step number one is parents. So how do parents instill that faith? Well, number one, we have to model a faith that our kids find attractive. And this is exactly what your son said to you. It doesn't matter what we say if we don't really believe it and live it out. Of course, not perfectly. But the kind of life that our kids just find attractive. That step number one is to model it. Number two, build relationships with your kids. Intimate close relationships.

I actually co-wrote a book with a friend of mine. It was called So the Next Generation Will Know. And we had one whole chapter in this. It’s, he's a cold case detective, J. Warner Wallace, former atheist. He actually became a Christian when he examined the Gospel of Mark through forensic analysis and was like, “This is reliable testimony.” Well, we had a whole chapter on all the studies we could find on why kids disengage the faith and tried to bring it all together.

And to me, the most significant study I'm aware of comes from a sociologist at USC, He wrote a book about a decade ago called Faith and Families and it was published with Oxford Press. And they studied thirty-five hundred people, thirty-five years, four generations. And what they said, the most significant factor n faith transmission is a quote, Chip, “Warm relationship with the father.” Number one.

CHIP: Wow.

SEAN: Now it doesn't make the mother unimportant. That's not the point, but sociologically, a man tends to be more of a wild card. And there might be something about the father taking the lead the way God wired us, but nonetheless, number one, model.

Number two, build intimate, close relationships with your kids. And by the way, in that study, they also said that grandparents are playing an increasingly significant role in faith transmission of their kids.

Third, is have meaningful conversations about faith issues with your kids. Not lectures, just conversations. Whether it's like what I'm doing with my son at breakfast, whether it's over the dinner table. Some people do formal devotions. I don't really do formal devotions. Maybe in the morning my son and I are doing that kind of thing a little bit. But just as opportunities arise in the rhythm of life, having conversations about faith.

So, I shared this with Jim Daly; we were interviewing him on our podcast. I said, “Jim, here's what I think. Number one, model. Number two, build relationships. Number three, have spiritual conversations.” He goes, “I agree. And fourth, if you make mistakes, go to your kids and own it and model what it means to show humility and forgiveness.” And I thought, I'm officially going to have to add that to my list now because Jim said it from Focus on the Family. So I think that's, statistically speaking and biblically, you find a lot of this in Deuteronomy 6:4. That's what I think as a whole the research really shows.

And of course, getting your kids into a church. I mean, there's other things you want to do on top of that, but that's the bottom line, what I think the data points to.

CHIP: Well, I've pastored for about thirty-five or forty years. And I can tell you that it's true, anecdotally, I meet so many parents who drop their kids off at church, who have a faith that semi-matters, but it's not really attractive. And the disconnect is, you know, I put them in a Christian school, I dropped them at the high school group, I've convinced them even to go to a Christian college and they're now, you know, three years, five years out of college or in the middle of college, they're living with their boyfriend or they've come out of this or come out of that and they can't make the connection that behavior always really reveals our genuine beliefs.

So behavior said how we appeared in front of other people mattered most. Behavior said work and money and where we lived and what we owned mattered most. And you can say whatever you want, you can go to church, you can send them to all kind of schools. But it is those connections of the heart and where they see you trusting Christ.

And I will say, I think the one that Jim hit on, and maybe it's because I didn't grow up as a believer, but so when I became a believer and then I became a dad, and I happened to have the privilege of adopting my older two boys, and it's a long story, many of the Living on the Edge people know, but my wife came to Christ after she was abandoned. So when I got married, I became an instant father.

SEAN: Yeah.

CHIP: And it was like, I have no idea. My dad was a, my dad was a good guy, a World War II vet, Guam, Iwo Jima, Purple Heart, deeply damaged alcoholic. So he tried really hard, but I didn't learn how to be a dad. And so it was like starting from scratch.

I wrote my, thesis in seminary on the role and responsibility of the father and transmitting values in the family. As I- as I wrote that, one of the things I came to was, when you blow it, own it. I just, if I got a dollar for every time I had to apologize to my kids for, oh, you know, I disciplined you and what you did was really, really wrong, but how I did it and the tone of my voice and I was angry and, when you get on one knee to a three or four-year-old and tell them you're sorry with tears in your eyes and they sit on your lap and they apologize to you and you apologize to them and you learn to talk to Jesus together. That was, we were just learning as a family, but I think those are the kind of things that really help kids understand this is real, this is from the heart and um those four things you shared I think are going to be a great value.

Now I’ve got to follow up with… If someone said, “Look, Sean, I'm really committed as a grandparent or as a pastor, maybe I've been doing this for a while, I'm a little out of touch. Would you walk me through maybe the top four or five books, as you see what's happening in the culture, that would really help parents and grandparents deal with the issues that they're facing?” And please at least include a couple or more of your own.

SEAN: Fair enough. So when it comes to kids, there's a relational component and there's an intellectual component. You know, it says in Thessalonians, Paul says, “We not only gave you the Gospel,” the content, “but our very own lives,” relationship. So relationally, I mean, basically your question, I've been asked this for almost twenty years-plus, is there any book for parents, Christian school teachers, grandparents on how to pass on the faith that's biblically rooted but practical?

So finally, J. Warner Wallace and I wrote that. It's called So the Next Generation Will Know. It's a how-to book. It's like practical steps to take with this generation. So that's probably the number one, and I wrote it because I just couldn't find a book that I felt was out there. And it was one of the easiest books to write because it's stuff I think about and I try to do in my whole life. So that's the relational side. And, gosh, there's some other great books on building relationships with kids too.

But I, you know, on the truth side, you know, More Than a Carpenter, we just updated it together. My dad's book he wrote in 1977 and worldwide it's like thirty million in print, I think a hundred and twenty languages. And it's one of the most widely read Christian books of the past, I guess, fifty years almost. We just did an update this past fall where it's better, it's shorter, it's crisper than ever. And so that's an easy book to read with a young person, just chapter by chapter, section by section. And it's framed with my dad's story and journey. So it's not just a book of facts. I think that's one reason why it's so interesting.

The other one is there's something called The Apologetic Study Bible For Students. And I had a chance to be the general editor on this with a whole team putting it together. And it's a study Bible and it's a great study Bible that has notes at the bottom, but we have all these features like little archeological finds, sidebars, there's dozens and dozens of them on like common twisted scriptures that Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses or Muslims will do and quick responses to them kind of put in there.

We add stories of key apologists like C.S. Lewis and my father's story and others are placed in there because stories are interesting and encouraging. But the main feature is just the top one hundred and forty questions this generation is asking about the Bible, about science, about homosexuality and transgender, about hell, about evil. And I got this from talking to students, I talked to youth pastors, I mean, I narrowed down, like things like, is it okay to get a tattoo? Like, students are asking that. What does the Bible say about that? And we got some of the best apologists to answer them in just one page.

So I've told a lot of parents, I'm like, “What a resource. Just read this with your kid and say, ‘Do you agree? Do you disagree? What stands out to you? What's interesting to you? What would you have added?’” And you just talk with them one by one. That's a hundred and forty conversations with young people.

CHIP: Wow.

SEAN: And so that's in part why we did it. But I also recommend ministries like Stand to Reason by Greg Koukl. Every parent should be listening to the Stand to Reason podcast.

Now, as far as talking to kids about sex, my parents wrote a book, the title is Straight Talk with Your Kids About Sex. It's the best guide I'm aware of for parents. Here's how you do this, here's when you start, here's what it looks like. And just a wonderful practical guide. Straight Talk with Your Kids About Sex by Josh and Dottie McDowell.

One of my favorite books I wrote is called Chasing Love. And I wrote it for my own kids…

CHIP: Oh, wow.

SEAN: …because I couldn't find a book that I thought was on relationships and dating and sex that was biblically based and relevant to the pornography just phenomenon today, to the transgender conversation, to questions like living together. So that's a book on relationships.

This week, I had a parent say, “I'm just reading it chapter by chapter with my kids.” And I was like, “Amen.” Like I just wish more parents would do that. That's how you relationally pass on the truth. And I think most kids want to have these kinds of conversations. I really do. If we listen, we do it respectfully, we don't force stuff on them, I really think they want to have these kinds of conversations.

CHIP: Well, I would really affirm that. And the thing I've told parents is they're going to have the conversation and they're going to hear about all of this. And they're going to hear it from someone other than you unless you take the initiative.

SEAN: That’s right.

CHIP: And in our day, it probably needs to start far younger than you think because I read a study recently where the, one of the number one issues, fifth and sixth graders, was sex. That pornography addiction starts as early as eleven years old. Some of us from our background, you think, How could that be possible? And yet it is, it's a very different world now.

SEAN: I think that's right, which is why one of the things my parents point out in that book is start the conversation early.

CHIP: Yes.

SEAN: Start it early in age-appropriate ways…

CHIP: Yep.

SEAN: …but start it early. And again, if you're modeling a marriage, you know one thing my parents would say to me, Chip? Sometimes when I was younger, when I wanted to do something I thought was a good idea and my parents did not, my dad would say, he'd say, “Son, do you want the kind of future marriage and relationship that your mom and I have?” Now you only ask that question if you know the answer in advance.

CHIP: Right.

SEAN: And I'd say yes. He'd say, “Then if you want that, the decision you're about to make is going to set you back and make it more painful and difficult than you know to get there in life. Don't do it, son, because I love you and I can see how it would affect you.” Now I'm not saying I always listened, I still might have done stupid things, but it's like pointing back towards your modeling, leaning into the relationship that you have. And that, you know, that really worked for me at least.

CHIP: As I would analyze our conversation, which, you know, just because the way my brain works, I do stuff like that even when I'm in it. If I was on the outside of our conversation and I would think about, Okay, now this was about apologetics; this was about dealing with doubt. And as I'm listening to you two, it seems like, rather than seventy-five new facts and the Bible says this about that and here's all the things that you need to fill your kids' heads with, or here's the seven best arguments for God and this – you guys spent a lot of time talking about relationships, connection, authenticity, having genuine, real answers, being very open, getting resources, taking time to actually study, talk, read, have conversations.

And it really begs the question of building a home life and building a relationship where this matters more than being in the car four times a week for youth sports or for work that takes you from, well, I have to leave the house at six a.m. to beat traffic and I get home about eight thirty and a couple nights a week I get to tuck my kids in.

I've had that conversation with a lot of very committed Christians, very successful executives to which I follow with, “Well, tell me about the dreams you have for your marriage and for your kids and for your future.” And they do. And then I say, “Well, I just want you to know that your current behavior has a trajectory that I will guarantee a hundred percent you will not fulfill those dreams. You will not. So, I mean, you can keep doing what you're doing and you can tell yourself, but that behavior, that lifestyle, that lack of connection, I can tell you for sure that these things that you want and you're dreaming and thinking about will never be a reality.”

And one of the most, I would say, encouraging of all the things I ever get to do is be in a study with those kind of guys for six or nine months or a year and watch them make decisions that are so counter to the demands of Silicon Valley, and to get their priorities in a way that you know, they're tucking their kids in bed. They're eating dinner as a family. They're doing some things that in the long term are way more important than those extra hours of work.

As we wrap it up, one of, kind of, the guys that influenced me, and I'm not a manager, I'm just a reader, but Peter Drucker was, you know, sort of the great wisdom of management, and he had a few one-liners that have always stuck with me, and one of them was, you know, “Build on islands of strength, as opposed to trying to solve all your weaknesses.” And he was speaking a lot organizationally. But just as we wrap things up, you know, because we've talked about dealing with issues and problems and solutions, you've got some kids at Biola that you would just say, man alive, I hope my twelve-year-old when they're nineteen or twenty-one is like Bobby or Mary or, I mean, they're walking with God, they have a heart for God. What is it about kids that you see are the kind of kids who are changing the world and they're going to change the world for Christ? What are some things they have in common that you would say to our audience, “Hey, if you want to build on islands of strength, if you want to, you know, focus on what works instead of always being problem oriented, what would those things be?

SEAN: So I have one undergrad class at Biola. It's an upper level kind of apologetics, evangelism, social issues class. So I have about twenty-five students and I'm consistently impressed at the caliber and motivation of our students. It blows me away. Like it's really, it's really amazing the kind of young people, and people dog Gen Z. I think, oh, I’ve got twenty-five in my class every semester and these students are sharp and motivated and they care. Most of my students, I'm in a, I teach primarily at a grad program in apologetics that's distance-based now. So that's up to people who are, you know, twenty-five to probably seventy-five years old, every profession you can imagine.

But probably every semester I have students who come to me, some other students at Biola who just know me but don't have me in class, want to have office hours, And either they have questions and doubts and I listen to them, I ask them questions, I try to get to the root of it, I don't freak out, I just try to help them think through where they're at and why and what it means to connect with God. One thing I would say about the impressive students is I do have a good number of students, Chip, that I'm amazed at who don't come from the kind of family backgrounds we've been discussing here.

CHIP: Yeah.

SEAN: I have two in particular at least that I can think of in a class right now that have told me, you know, “My parents are not Christians. They don't love the Lord. I have a heart and I have a burden for them.” And it's just kind of amazing. Oftentimes they were connected in a church; oftentimes they had a Christian mentor. You know, there's someone else in their life that came along and just helped and encouraged them. I have a number of students with amazing faith from broken homes, you know, more than you would think today.

And a lot of them say, “You know what? My dad wasn't there, but my mom just prayed for me and built relationships with me and took me to church, didn't drop me off but she was there with us, went to the sports things with us and just sacrificed and prayed for us.”

And so, you know, there's no formula I can say, I don't want parents to hear this and be discouraged because they don't have the kind of family background that we described. That is God's design and that gives students the best chance statistically speaking of following the Lord. But there are plenty of exceptions when the Holy Spirit works, when somebody's, you know, confronted appropriately with the Gospel, has a Christian mentor in their life. And I see those students at Biola and they're flourishing and they're doing well and they're world changers too.

CHIP: Well, that's a great word of hope. I think you described both my wife and me. You know, neither of us Christian homes, both alcoholic homes, some real tragedy and a mentor in each of our lives. And that's hope. When people are open, God's at work. And in fact, He's at work even when people aren't open.

And yeah, so Sean, thank you so very much for taking the time and sharing and I'm glad I got to know you personally and I've got some books to buy and things to check out. Oh, I mean that. I'm a big believer and, you know, lifelong learner and I would just end with one thought because you mentioned about three or four or five times just toward the very end and when I think about our kids, my wife prays like few people I know and I'm sure there's people who pray longer and deeper. I've just never met them. And I've just, I mean, there's times where I would go into where she's been and, you know, the first time it was like, I thought she had a bad cold or something, because there was a pile of tissues. And I said, “Are you okay?” And she said, “Of course I'm okay, why?” I said, “Well, you know, there's a pile of tissues.” And she looked at me like, Well, I was praying.

SEAN: Wow.

CHIP: And she prays from her heart and she weeps before the Lord and intercedes. And I just want to make sure people that are listening, when I look at my children and when I look at what things God has done, please don't think this is an intellectual thing or just a relational thing or the right kind of family thing. “Call to Me and I will answer you and I will tell you great and mighty things,” Jeremiah 33:3.

And this morning I was reviewing a verse. And it says, “We have whatever we ask from Him…

SEAN: Amen.

CHIP: …because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.” And I would just want to leave our listeners with, when God finds a man or woman, a mom, a dad, a pastor, maybe a grandfather or grandmother, who comes before God and pours out your heart on behalf of those people that you love so deeply and you care for, God really hears. And He acts in powerful ways. Our greatest hope is what God's about. And we always have to remember we have that access. So, Sean, what a delight to have you. Thanks so much.

SEAN: It was one of my favorite conversations in a while, Chip. Thanks for having me on.

CHIP: You bet.
CHIP: Well thank you very much, Dave. This is a very, very special program. We spent the last month talking about: we all have doubts; we all have struggles. And of course, those that are parents and grandparents, pastors, the next generation is certainly near and dear to our heart. And so as I was praying this through, I thought, who could I invite that works with young people that really is connected to what's really going on to say, “Hey, could you help us really understand what's going on in the lives, especially of younger people and where their struggles are, where are their doubts?” And so I want to welcome Sean McDowell. Great to have you with us.

SEAN: Chip, this is such a treat. I've been looking forward to this.

CHIP: Well, thanks for being with us. I did not grow up as a follower of Christ and I was a skeptic. And your dad's book, More Than a Carpenter and then Evidence that Demands a Verdict, were ones that I pored over. And, like, could this really be true in my, kind of, young struggle? So, it's great to have you with us and maybe tell us, I know you're a professor at Biola, I've watched your podcast – give me just a little bit of your background and your heart and why you do what you do.

SEAN: Yeah, I grew up in a small town in San Diego, even though my parents were missionaries and still are with CRU, I had no intention of becoming an apologist, being a professor, or following in my dad's footsteps. At one point, I thought I was going into politics. Another time, a lawyer. I thought I was going to play in the NBA, probably in junior high. Like, I just had no intention of going into this for a lot of reasons.

Really, one thing that shifted, there's a few pieces of this story, but my senior year at Biola, I had a class with J.P. Moreland, who's still to this day one of the leading philosophers, not just Christian philosophers in the world on the philosophy of mind. And it was on apologetics. And I thought, Well, this will be easy, I grew up in an apologetics family. I had no idea what I was stepping into, Chip, because my dad, like you mentioned the two books, More Than a Carpenter and Evidence That Demands Verdict, those are historical apologetics. J.P. does philosophical apologetics, the argument from consciousness, intelligent design. I heard this stuff and it was like, Whoa, this is so interesting.

And so ended up wanting to become, I wanted to work with students, I got that love from my parents. And I thought, You know what? I could teach in a youth ministry program, but you only get students an hour or two a week. I'm going to teach you to Christian school, have students three hours a week, get weekends and summers off to speak and write. And for twenty-one years, full-time and part-time, I've been teaching Bible. And this is the first year I'm actually not doing it part-time. I am a full-time apologetics professor.

So I guess to sum it up, I'm a communicator. I have a YouTube channel, I'm on Instagram, I write books, I speak and teach. And my heart is evangelism, apologetics, equipping and reaching the next generation.

CHIP: I want to just jump right in because we've covered, some of the intellectual issues, emotional issues, everything from, does Christianity work? Is it believable? But one of the things we wanted to frame everything around was this whole idea of doubt. And some people, think that any doubt you might have about God or His Word is negative. But from your perspective, what's the role of doubt? How does that play out in the development of our faith?

SEAN: I'm a natural doubter, Chip. I doubt everything. If I buy a car, I'm like, Well, maybe I should have bought this car. If I go on a vacation, I'm like, Well, maybe I could have gotten a better deal. I just doubt everything. I think I'm wired that way.

And I have a pastor friend years ago who I think has the gift of faith. And at this point, he lost his job, was looking for another one. And I'm like, “Hey, what are you going to do?” And he was like, “You know what? God is going to provide.” And I'm like, “How do you know? Maybe God wants you to suffer.” And he just looks at me and he’s like, “Sean, God's going to provide. Don't worry.”

And I remember, like, looking at that going, man, why don't I have that faith? And it hit me sometime later, I thought, you know what? If I had that kind of gift of faith as he did, I wouldn't write seven-hundred-page books defending the truth of Christianity. I wouldn't do a PhD dissertation tracing down the stories of whether or not the apostles died as martyrs to see if we could trust their testimony. It's doubts that drive me to ask questions, drive me to go in. So my friend needs me to do this and I need his strength of faith.

So people are going to have different kinds and levels of doubt. Now in our age of social media, I really don't know how anybody doesn't at least have some doubt. I don't know how it's possible with so many smart people who have, for lack of a better term, ministries all over TikTok, all over YouTube, all over trying to evangelize and disciple people out of their faith. I don't know how everybody doesn't at least have some doubt, but one key point I would make that's really important, doubt is not the opposite of faith. Unbelief is. You can believe something and have doubts. In a sense, to have doubt is just to not be one hundred percent certain that something is true.

CHIP: Right.

SEAN: But it's important we don't assume doubt is unbelief, which is why I think Jude 22 says, “Have mercy on those who doubt.” It can be painful. It can be difficult. It can be an existential crisis, which I, in part, went through.

So the last thing I'll say on this is when my students often say to me, you know, “I'm having doubts or questions,” I'll respond by saying, “Good for you.” (CHIP: Huh.) I just want to let them know, “Okay, you realize this matters.” “And you're using your mind, you're asking questions. Let's dig in and see if we can figure this out.”

CHIP: That is so helpful. Doubt is not the opposite of faith. Unbelief is. I don't think most people think of it like that. I remember, um, I didn't grow up as a follower of Christ. Right after high school, trusted Christ, got involved in the discipleship ministry, And then I really had a hunger for God. And then I decided one summer, mostly so I could play in a summer basketball league and be ready for the next year of college basketball, it really wasn't about school, but I stayed on campus. And I remember something happened. It was just a flash of, What if this isn't true? What if this is just some college emotional experience?

Now, God really changed my life, my relationships. And so, I had this experiential reality. And then I had, looking back, probably extreme spiritual warfare. But it was like darts of, You're deluded. You're crazy. None of this is true. And I went through a summer without emotional connection to God, if you know what I mean.

SEAN: Wow.

CHIP: And choosing to say, What's it look like to trust God when all these thoughts are going into my mind and I don't know what to do with them? Anyway, any insight on that person who is saying, I don't know if this is true.’”

SEAN:  Well, one point I want to make is I want to compare and contrast your story with the person in the Bible who we associate with doubt, namely Thomas. Thomas didn't say, “Gosh, I have questions. I'm not sure. I'm wrestling with this. I don't know.” Thomas said, “I will not believe unless I see and touch the nail marks in His hand and in His side.” We equate doubt with total rejection of the faith. That's what we have to reframe. You had an experience of doubt, not “I reject this. I will not believe period unless You prove it to me empirically.”

So some of the way we approach this, I think, needs to be re-shifted. I had a similar experience as you Chip. And for me, interestingly enough, I was also playing college basketball. I didn't know you're a college basketball player. We have to have that conversation sometime. And I was at Biola of all places, mid-90s. And I got online and started fishing around trying to figure out what this internet thing was and came across these atheist sites that basically started some of the atheist web responding to my dad's content in Evidence That Demands a Verdict.

CHIP: Wow.

SEAN: Chapter by chapter, doctors, lawyers, historians, philosophers. And that's the first time the weight hit me like you and I thought, Oh my goodness, what if I'm wrong about this?

CHIP: Yeah.

SEAN: It wasn't just intellectual. It was emotional. I felt it. Like it was heavy because I realized what's at stake. Well, I figured I had to tell my dad, this great apologist and, you know, in case some people don't know him, just so people have context: he's spoken to twelve hundred universities, written a hundred and sixty books, hands down, one of the most influential evangelicals in the past half century. And he's an apologist. And this is my dad. And I'm about to tell him that I'm not sure I think this stuff is true.

So just setting the table for people. And we're in Breckenridge, Colorado. And I just said, “Hey, can we go to coffee or tea or something like that?” And we sat down as best as I could remember, Chip. I wish I had a video of it. I said something to the effect of, “Dad, you know, I'm not really sure I'm convinced Christianity is true.” He didn't freak out. He looked at me and he goes, “Son, I think that's great.”

And I remember thinking, Did you even hear what I just said? And what he communicated to me was, you know, you can't believe this just because I believe it. You’ve got to decide and follow what you think is true. He said, “Don't reject Christianity, just, unless you're really convinced that it's false. And you know, your mom and I will love you no matter what.

CHIP: Wow.

SEAN: And I really don't want to over dramatize that, but it was a significant moment for me. And that's what I encourage parents to do. Don't freak out. Don't get defensive. It probably has nothing to do with your parenting or lack thereof.

And one of the most interesting studies, Chip, this was done on Millennials, Sticky Faith by Kara Powell out of Fuller Theological Seminary, they said people don't leave the faith because of doubts. They do because of unexpressed doubts. People don't leave primarily because of questions, but because of unexpressed questions that foster like a cancer.

So in many ways, it was just being able to get it off my chest and have my dad not freak out. It's like, I think about, like, when I'm on the airline and I look at the steward, you know, when we're shaking a little bit, I've traveled my whole life and I still get a little antsy. If I look at the steward and they're like freaking out, like I'm going, boy, we're going down. But they've been trained to look calm and collected and put you at ease. That's the response when kids doubt.

My dad was like, “You're going to be fine. If you seek after truth, you're going to end up following Jesus, I think. And I love you no matter what.” So he gave me space, reassured me of my love, didn't freak out. He offered to help me make sense of these, but honestly I needed somebody else outside of my dad. Like in movies sometimes you just need a mentor. So people like William Lane Craig and J.P. Moreland to answer some of those philosophical questions. And ultimately I obviously came back or stayed within the faith, I guess you could say.

CHIP: You know, I've come from most of this from a pastoral perspective and, talking with those parents that literally are, “What did I do wrong?” And the world is falling apart. And their fear often drives them to start shoving information in front of their student or young adult which actually produces exactly the opposite response of what they're really hoping for. And it's the opposite of what you described, And I say that to those listening, if you could lighten up and trust God in the midst of this and give, God some room to work in your, whether it's a teenager or young adult or college student.

One of my four kids went through a real challenging time. He's really, really smart, one of those kids that didn't have to study and did great on the test, which made his fraternal twin brother absolutely sick, you know, he would bust it and work and work and work and they'd both do well. But it was like one would just show up and not study and get, you know, two points higher than his brother. And he went through a time where he just, he looked at me and he said, “Dad, I actually really like you as a dad. I just wish you weren't a Christian dad.”

SEAN: Oh my goodness.

CHIP: And it wasn't like, oh, two weeks later, everything was fine. He went on a journey of questions and doubts, that just led to some really challenging times. Fast forward, it was three, four years later. It was not an easy or short-term time. And it kind of came to a crisis and we had to figure out, you know, where are we going to go with this? And he spent a couple days, as I remember it, he might remember it a little bit differently. I'm learning the older I get, we both have the same experience, but it is recorded very differently…

SEAN: Sure, sure.

CHIP: …or can be very different. So I just want to honor him in that. But I remember him coming out of his bedroom, at least it seemed to me, after about two days. I could see this change. And at some point later, when you could just really tell that he'd reestablished his faith, I kind of asked him, what happened? And it was really interesting, because you know, when you're a pastor, he's heard hundreds of my sermons…

SEAN: That's right.

CHIP: …perhaps thousands, right? You know, I bet there was one that was really, and of course, none of that was the reason. And he said, “Well, Dad, to be very honest, I really struggled. And I wrestled.” But he said, “You know, I just, I've watched you and mom and Jesus is so real to you two. And you and mom, you're first generation Christians and you're just the same at home as you are at church. I asked Jesus to be as real to me as He obviously is to you.”

And I just want to kind of say maybe to some of those parents, grandparents, or even some pastors that there's few things that we'll do to help our kids walk with God more than just with all of our imperfections, just live it out. You know, they actually do observe us. And just because they go through some seasons where they doubt or struggle, one of the greatest apologetics is the love of God and the light of God being lived out in very imperfect people like a mom and dad. And that has been a great hope and encouragement for me that I've shared with a lot of parents going through rough times.

SEAN: That's an amazing story. Thanks for sharing that. That line just jumped out to me, “I wish you weren't a Christian dad.” I mean, every bone or nerve inside of me would want to get defensive and get angry and react and feel offended. Like that's just a natural human response. But if we ask ourselves, What's best for our kid in this situation is just to listen…

CHIP: Yeah.

SEAN: …And say, “Tell me about that. What do you wish that I was? Why do you wish I wasn't a Christian?”

CHIP: Yeah.

SEAN: ”What do you understand that Christianity is? When did you first have this thought that you wished it were different?” I mean, just be curious and lean in. And it sounds like that's what you did.

So I meet, when I, especially when I go travel and online I get emails, I was at this event recently and this dad brought his daughter over who was questioning her faith and he goes, “Tell her that the Bible is true. Explain it to her. Give her the evidence.” And I'm in this awkward situation where I just didn't want to make the dad look stupid in front of his daughter. And as best I can remember, I just said something tell me your story. Tell me who you are. Tell me what you believe. Tell me how you got there.” And just listen and understand. That's at the root of so much of this. So, great stories, powerful stuff, Chip.

CHIP: It was quite a journey. And when he said that, tears just started streaming down my face. And it was just, it was so, painful on the one hand, and yet I had lived where he lived. I didn't grow up believing in Jesus. And so, you know, it was just probably one of those times where my lack of response was probably the best thing I could have ever done other than it broke my heart.

SEAN: Of course.

CHIP: But, you know, as we're talking here, a lot of things boil down to real personal relationship. And as I heard you: be curious, ask questions, find out where did this start? Give people some space. And I'm going to write this down for my pastoral counseling in the future, your words, “Don't freak out.” That was a great line.

As you're with young people all the time now, what are the challenges where did the struggles come up, and what's been the most effective way to help them develop their own faith? Which really is the goal here. We're not trying to figure out how as parents or pastors or grandparents to brainwash our kids to get in a little box and believe this or believe that. It's to meet the living God and know emotionally and intellectually and volitionally: this is true and I believe it for me.

SEAN: Yeah, that's a good two-part question. Let's start with the first part that you said about the challenges that they face and then get to what the positive steps are that we can take biblically. I think there's different kinds of challenges. I think in this generation, of course, we're hearing about anxiety and depression and loneliness. So mental health issues in some ways affect the way we process truth. It becomes like a filter through which we read the Scripture, sometimes positively, sometimes negatively.

There was just an article last week in the New York Times, talking about how since 2019, the percentage of “nones” has flatlined. So we've heard since the 90s, the N-O-N-E-S, those who are not religious has been increasing, and yet it's flatlined. And yet this article said, and they were citing Ryan Burge, who's one of the experts on this, that as older generations die out and Millennials and Gen Zers become more of the population, the shift towards nones and secularism is going to increase substantially. And I think he's probably right.

The thing that he said was, he cited, this is one piece of it,s but they said just the Church abuse scandals, they said a lot of younger Christians, maybe thirty and below and non-Christians are looking at the Church saying, “Are they necessarily more moral than I am? Are they good? Are they really living differently?” And if they're not, this is back to your point earlier, Chip, like if we're not living it and modeling the life of Christ, it doesn't matter what we say, what apologetic we give. There's issues of just our witness in this frazzled, polarized, angry culture. I think questions of science and faith still bubble to the surface, especially with artificial intelligence and the soul and the afterlife and evolution, like science is still such an authority in our culture that that comes.

And then I think questions about just the exclusivity of faith. I mean, this generation, I was talking yesterday with my students at Biola how when I was in high school, it was like, everyone was talking about tolerance. Now it's diversity and inclusiveness. And yet the gospel, you know, some think it's a white man's religion, whether true or not, they think it's not diverse. And also, it seems exclusive, the opposite of inclusivity. So that's exploded with this generation in a way that's different with previous generations, arguably, at least at this stage of development.

I think some of the intellectual questions are things like, I mean, I just get questions all the time about sexuality everywhere I go. The LGBTQ conversation. And it's not just what does Romans 1 say about this. So what does the science show about whether you're born this way or not? It's, “I have a friend who's this way. And can I really love Jesus and love them? Am I a bigot? How do I navigate this?” Like those are real questions that I think this generation is wrestling with. And so we’ve got to walk them through what Scripture says, why it says it and why it's good for them.

I'm going to say at the root of the Christian ethic is to love our neighbor. Why? Because they're made in the image of God. This is a Judeo-Christian belief. Gay or straight, regardless of sexual orientation, you have infinite value because you reflect our Creator. So it is the Christian ethic Jesus gave, you know, the Samaritan, about loving those who might be different. So let's start there and ask what does it look like to love our neighbors, LGBTQ or not?

Well, then let's ask the question, some of this really, I would take a step back, is a question of biblical authority. I really think the root is, do we take authority from culture, from our feelings, from experience, ultimately from science, or from Scripture? So in some ways we've got to come back to the question of what do we consider authoritative and why? Which is why with this generation, we not only have to teach them what the Bible says, but why it says what it says.

So my twelve-year-old son, we were just talking, we do breakfast together in the morning when we can. And I've been talking with him, either gospel of John, or I've been talking with him about this book on how to talk to your kids about sex. And I just said, “What is God's design for sex?” He gave an answer for it. And I just said, “Why do think God gives that design?”

And I listened to him and I said, “You know, God's design is to protect us. When we step outside of God's design, there can be emotional hurt. There can be relational wounding. There can be things like STDs when we step outside of God's design. But you know, positively,” I said, “Buddy,” you know, he's twelve, I said, “do you think it's important for a kid to have a mom and a dad?” He said, “Yeah.” I said, “Do moms parent differently than dads parent?” He said, “Yes.” That's God's design and that's good.

So one of the reasons God says marriage is one man and one woman in a committed relationship for life is so kids grow up in the optimal environment where they have a mom and a dad and the sociological research shows that that's the environment in which we flourish most.

So that's a few points that I would make and the “T” is different than the “L” and the “G” and the “B.” Speaking to a Christian kid is different than speaking to somebody who's a non-Christian. But I just want to pull back and say God is the one who gave us the ethic of equality. God is the one who gave us the ethic of love your neighbor. God is the one who gave us the ethic that we have value because we are human.

But that same God designed marriage and He designed our bodies to operate a certain way. And when we follow the owner's manual, which is according to God's design, we actually flourish as human beings most.

So these are some of the questions this generation wrestles with as a whole. The best thing I found is when I have a young person front of me is I don't want to assume they're wrestling with A, B, or C. I just want to ask questions, listen and figure out the heart of what they're dealing with, and try to address that if I can.

CHIP: My background was a lot in psychology, graduate school and undergraduate. And when you do the research, you know, part of the completely secular research about what kind of environments people thrive in and, you know, what helps them, you constantly come back to what the Scripture teaches about what a man needs to be and cherishing and caring and protecting and loving and what a woman needs to be and what they need to do and the mutual submission to one another and creating this environment where, kids can flourish and feel loved and valued.

And part of the challenge is there's not a lot of those kind of models, and that the family has broken down in such a way that a lot of people are looking to social media or the culture to try and figure out what's up, what's down.

What's your counsel to that couple who says, “We really want to raise our kids in a way that honors God, we know they’re being bombarded by social media, “We don't want to be too strict because if we say no, no, no to everything, and on the other hand, there are real dangers. Sean, you're an apologist, you're a dad, you work with students. Please give me some wise counsel about raising my kids in a way that will help them flourish.”

SEAN: Going back to at least 1972, and this comes from Christian Smith, a sociologist at Notre Dame, in his book, Handing Down the Faith, he says the data consistently shows that parents have the most significant influence on the faith of their kids. Now Netflix and TikTok and the educational system and Hollywood has an influence, but not the same level of influence parents can and do have.

So what does kind of the data and Scripture show the best chance of passing on our faith? And by the way, there's no formula to do this. You can do everything right and kids have free will. And I was thinking to those parents earlier when you said you wept about your son and what he shared with you.

One of the things I tell parents, I say, “You know, if your kids are not following the Lord, remember God's heart is more broken than your heart or my heart could ever be.” Jesus wept over Jerusalem. So that's one place to start with. God is pursuing and seeking them in ways we can't and won't understand until the story's already done.

But step number one is parents. So how do parents instill that faith? Well, number one, we have to model a faith that our kids find attractive. And this is exactly what your son said to you. It doesn't matter what we say if we don't really believe it and live it out. Of course, not perfectly. But the kind of life that our kids just find attractive. That step number one is to model it. Number two, build relationships with your kids. Intimate close relationships.

I actually co-wrote a book with a friend of mine. It was called So the Next Generation Will Know. And we had one whole chapter in this. It’s, he's a cold case detective, J. Warner Wallace, former atheist. He actually became a Christian when he examined the Gospel of Mark through forensic analysis and was like, “This is reliable testimony.” Well, we had a whole chapter on all the studies we could find on why kids disengage the faith and tried to bring it all together.

And to me, the most significant study I'm aware of comes from a sociologist at USC, He wrote a book about a decade ago called Faith and Families and it was published with Oxford Press. And they studied thirty-five hundred people, thirty-five years, four generations. And what they said, the most significant factor n faith transmission is a quote, Chip, “Warm relationship with the father.” Number one.

CHIP: Wow.

SEAN: Now it doesn't make the mother unimportant. That's not the point, but sociologically, a man tends to be more of a wild card. And there might be something about the father taking the lead the way God wired us, but nonetheless, number one, model.

Number two, build intimate, close relationships with your kids. And by the way, in that study, they also said that grandparents are playing an increasingly significant role in faith transmission of their kids.

Third, is have meaningful conversations about faith issues with your kids. Not lectures, just conversations. Whether it's like what I'm doing with my son at breakfast, whether it's over the dinner table. Some people do formal devotions. I don't really do formal devotions. Maybe in the morning my son and I are doing that kind of thing a little bit. But just as opportunities arise in the rhythm of life, having conversations about faith.

So, I shared this with Jim Daly; we were interviewing him on our podcast. I said, “Jim, here's what I think. Number one, model. Number two, build relationships. Number three, have spiritual conversations.” He goes, “I agree. And fourth, if you make mistakes, go to your kids and own it and model what it means to show humility and forgiveness.” And I thought, I'm officially going to have to add that to my list now because Jim said it from Focus on the Family. So I think that's, statistically speaking and biblically, you find a lot of this in Deuteronomy 6:4. That's what I think as a whole the research really shows.

And of course, getting your kids into a church. I mean, there's other things you want to do on top of that, but that's the bottom line, what I think the data points to.

CHIP: Well, I've pastored for about thirty-five or forty years. And I can tell you that it's true, anecdotally, I meet so many parents who drop their kids off at church, who have a faith that semi-matters, but it's not really attractive. And the disconnect is, you know, I put them in a Christian school, I dropped them at the high school group, I've convinced them even to go to a Christian college and they're now, you know, three years, five years out of college or in the middle of college, they're living with their boyfriend or they've come out of this or come out of that and they can't make the connection that behavior always really reveals our genuine beliefs.

So behavior said how we appeared in front of other people mattered most. Behavior said work and money and where we lived and what we owned mattered most. And you can say whatever you want, you can go to church, you can send them to all kind of schools. But it is those connections of the heart and where they see you trusting Christ.

And I will say, I think the one that Jim hit on, and maybe it's because I didn't grow up as a believer, but so when I became a believer and then I became a dad, and I happened to have the privilege of adopting my older two boys, and it's a long story, many of the Living on the Edge people know, but my wife came to Christ after she was abandoned. So when I got married, I became an instant father.

SEAN: Yeah.

CHIP: And it was like, I have no idea. My dad was a, my dad was a good guy, a World War II vet, Guam, Iwo Jima, Purple Heart, deeply damaged alcoholic. So he tried really hard, but I didn't learn how to be a dad. And so it was like starting from scratch.

I wrote my, thesis in seminary on the role and responsibility of the father and transmitting values in the family. As I- as I wrote that, one of the things I came to was, when you blow it, own it. I just, if I got a dollar for every time I had to apologize to my kids for, oh, you know, I disciplined you and what you did was really, really wrong, but how I did it and the tone of my voice and I was angry and, when you get on one knee to a three or four-year-old and tell them you're sorry with tears in your eyes and they sit on your lap and they apologize to you and you apologize to them and you learn to talk to Jesus together. That was, we were just learning as a family, but I think those are the kind of things that really help kids understand this is real, this is from the heart and um those four things you shared I think are going to be a great value.

Now I’ve got to follow up with… If someone said, “Look, Sean, I'm really committed as a grandparent or as a pastor, maybe I've been doing this for a while, I'm a little out of touch. Would you walk me through maybe the top four or five books, as you see what's happening in the culture, that would really help parents and grandparents deal with the issues that they're facing?” And please at least include a couple or more of your own.

SEAN: Fair enough. So when it comes to kids, there's a relational component and there's an intellectual component. You know, it says in Thessalonians, Paul says, “We not only gave you the Gospel,” the content, “but our very own lives,” relationship. So relationally, I mean, basically your question, I've been asked this for almost twenty years-plus, is there any book for parents, Christian school teachers, grandparents on how to pass on the faith that's biblically rooted but practical?

So finally, J. Warner Wallace and I wrote that. It's called So the Next Generation Will Know. It's a how-to book. It's like practical steps to take with this generation. So that's probably the number one, and I wrote it because I just couldn't find a book that I felt was out there. And it was one of the easiest books to write because it's stuff I think about and I try to do in my whole life. So that's the relational side. And, gosh, there's some other great books on building relationships with kids too.

But I, you know, on the truth side, you know, More Than a Carpenter, we just updated it together. My dad's book he wrote in 1977 and worldwide it's like thirty million in print, I think a hundred and twenty languages. And it's one of the most widely read Christian books of the past, I guess, fifty years almost. We just did an update this past fall where it's better, it's shorter, it's crisper than ever. And so that's an easy book to read with a young person, just chapter by chapter, section by section. And it's framed with my dad's story and journey. So it's not just a book of facts. I think that's one reason why it's so interesting.

The other one is there's something called The Apologetic Study Bible For Students. And I had a chance to be the general editor on this with a whole team putting it together. And it's a study Bible and it's a great study Bible that has notes at the bottom, but we have all these features like little archeological finds, sidebars, there's dozens and dozens of them on like common twisted scriptures that Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses or Muslims will do and quick responses to them kind of put in there.

We add stories of key apologists like C.S. Lewis and my father's story and others are placed in there because stories are interesting and encouraging. But the main feature is just the top one hundred and forty questions this generation is asking about the Bible, about science, about homosexuality and transgender, about hell, about evil. And I got this from talking to students, I talked to youth pastors, I mean, I narrowed down, like things like, is it okay to get a tattoo? Like, students are asking that. What does the Bible say about that? And we got some of the best apologists to answer them in just one page.

So I've told a lot of parents, I'm like, “What a resource. Just read this with your kid and say, ‘Do you agree? Do you disagree? What stands out to you? What's interesting to you? What would you have added?’” And you just talk with them one by one. That's a hundred and forty conversations with young people.

CHIP: Wow.

SEAN: And so that's in part why we did it. But I also recommend ministries like Stand to Reason by Greg Koukl. Every parent should be listening to the Stand to Reason podcast.

Now, as far as talking to kids about sex, my parents wrote a book, the title is Straight Talk with Your Kids About Sex. It's the best guide I'm aware of for parents. Here's how you do this, here's when you start, here's what it looks like. And just a wonderful practical guide. Straight Talk with Your Kids About Sex by Josh and Dottie McDowell.

One of my favorite books I wrote is called Chasing Love. And I wrote it for my own kids…

CHIP: Oh, wow.

SEAN: …because I couldn't find a book that I thought was on relationships and dating and sex that was biblically based and relevant to the pornography just phenomenon today, to the transgender conversation, to questions like living together. So that's a book on relationships.

This week, I had a parent say, “I'm just reading it chapter by chapter with my kids.” And I was like, “Amen.” Like I just wish more parents would do that. That's how you relationally pass on the truth. And I think most kids want to have these kinds of conversations. I really do. If we listen, we do it respectfully, we don't force stuff on them, I really think they want to have these kinds of conversations.

CHIP: Well, I would really affirm that. And the thing I've told parents is they're going to have the conversation and they're going to hear about all of this. And they're going to hear it from someone other than you unless you take the initiative.

SEAN: That’s right.

CHIP: And in our day, it probably needs to start far younger than you think because I read a study recently where the, one of the number one issues, fifth and sixth graders, was sex. That pornography addiction starts as early as eleven years old. Some of us from our background, you think, How could that be possible? And yet it is, it's a very different world now.

SEAN: I think that's right, which is why one of the things my parents point out in that book is start the conversation early.

CHIP: Yes.

SEAN: Start it early in age-appropriate ways…

CHIP: Yep.

SEAN: …but start it early. And again, if you're modeling a marriage, you know one thing my parents would say to me, Chip? Sometimes when I was younger, when I wanted to do something I thought was a good idea and my parents did not, my dad would say, he'd say, “Son, do you want the kind of future marriage and relationship that your mom and I have?” Now you only ask that question if you know the answer in advance.

CHIP: Right.

SEAN: And I'd say yes. He'd say, “Then if you want that, the decision you're about to make is going to set you back and make it more painful and difficult than you know to get there in life. Don't do it, son, because I love you and I can see how it would affect you.” Now I'm not saying I always listened, I still might have done stupid things, but it's like pointing back towards your modeling, leaning into the relationship that you have. And that, you know, that really worked for me at least.

CHIP: As I would analyze our conversation, which, you know, just because the way my brain works, I do stuff like that even when I'm in it. If I was on the outside of our conversation and I would think about, Okay, now this was about apologetics; this was about dealing with doubt. And as I'm listening to you two, it seems like, rather than seventy-five new facts and the Bible says this about that and here's all the things that you need to fill your kids' heads with, or here's the seven best arguments for God and this – you guys spent a lot of time talking about relationships, connection, authenticity, having genuine, real answers, being very open, getting resources, taking time to actually study, talk, read, have conversations.

And it really begs the question of building a home life and building a relationship where this matters more than being in the car four times a week for youth sports or for work that takes you from, well, I have to leave the house at six a.m. to beat traffic and I get home about eight thirty and a couple nights a week I get to tuck my kids in.

I've had that conversation with a lot of very committed Christians, very successful executives to which I follow with, “Well, tell me about the dreams you have for your marriage and for your kids and for your future.” And they do. And then I say, “Well, I just want you to know that your current behavior has a trajectory that I will guarantee a hundred percent you will not fulfill those dreams. You will not. So, I mean, you can keep doing what you're doing and you can tell yourself, but that behavior, that lifestyle, that lack of connection, I can tell you for sure that these things that you want and you're dreaming and thinking about will never be a reality.”

And one of the most, I would say, encouraging of all the things I ever get to do is be in a study with those kind of guys for six or nine months or a year and watch them make decisions that are so counter to the demands of Silicon Valley, and to get their priorities in a way that you know, they're tucking their kids in bed. They're eating dinner as a family. They're doing some things that in the long term are way more important than those extra hours of work.

As we wrap it up, one of, kind of, the guys that influenced me, and I'm not a manager, I'm just a reader, but Peter Drucker was, you know, sort of the great wisdom of management, and he had a few one-liners that have always stuck with me, and one of them was, you know, “Build on islands of strength, as opposed to trying to solve all your weaknesses.” And he was speaking a lot organizationally. But just as we wrap things up, you know, because we've talked about dealing with issues and problems and solutions, you've got some kids at Biola that you would just say, man alive, I hope my twelve-year-old when they're nineteen or twenty-one is like Bobby or Mary or, I mean, they're walking with God, they have a heart for God. What is it about kids that you see are the kind of kids who are changing the world and they're going to change the world for Christ? What are some things they have in common that you would say to our audience, “Hey, if you want to build on islands of strength, if you want to, you know, focus on what works instead of always being problem oriented, what would those things be?

SEAN: So I have one undergrad class at Biola. It's an upper level kind of apologetics, evangelism, social issues class. So I have about twenty-five students and I'm consistently impressed at the caliber and motivation of our students. It blows me away. Like it's really, it's really amazing the kind of young people, and people dog Gen Z. I think, oh, I’ve got twenty-five in my class every semester and these students are sharp and motivated and they care. Most of my students, I'm in a, I teach primarily at a grad program in apologetics that's distance-based now. So that's up to people who are, you know, twenty-five to probably seventy-five years old, every profession you can imagine.

But probably every semester I have students who come to me, some other students at Biola who just know me but don't have me in class, want to have office hours, And either they have questions and doubts and I listen to them, I ask them questions, I try to get to the root of it, I don't freak out, I just try to help them think through where they're at and why and what it means to connect with God. One thing I would say about the impressive students is I do have a good number of students, Chip, that I'm amazed at who don't come from the kind of family backgrounds we've been discussing here.

CHIP: Yeah.

SEAN: I have two in particular at least that I can think of in a class right now that have told me, you know, “My parents are not Christians. They don't love the Lord. I have a heart and I have a burden for them.” And it's just kind of amazing. Oftentimes they were connected in a church; oftentimes they had a Christian mentor. You know, there's someone else in their life that came along and just helped and encouraged them. I have a number of students with amazing faith from broken homes, you know, more than you would think today.

And a lot of them say, “You know what? My dad wasn't there, but my mom just prayed for me and built relationships with me and took me to church, didn't drop me off but she was there with us, went to the sports things with us and just sacrificed and prayed for us.”

And so, you know, there's no formula I can say, I don't want parents to hear this and be discouraged because they don't have the kind of family background that we described. That is God's design and that gives students the best chance statistically speaking of following the Lord. But there are plenty of exceptions when the Holy Spirit works, when somebody's, you know, confronted appropriately with the Gospel, has a Christian mentor in their life. And I see those students at Biola and they're flourishing and they're doing well and they're world changers too.

CHIP: Well, that's a great word of hope. I think you described both my wife and me. You know, neither of us Christian homes, both alcoholic homes, some real tragedy and a mentor in each of our lives. And that's hope. When people are open, God's at work. And in fact, He's at work even when people aren't open.

And yeah, so Sean, thank you so very much for taking the time and sharing and I'm glad I got to know you personally and I've got some books to buy and things to check out. Oh, I mean that. I'm a big believer and, you know, lifelong learner and I would just end with one thought because you mentioned about three or four or five times just toward the very end and when I think about our kids, my wife prays like few people I know and I'm sure there's people who pray longer and deeper. I've just never met them. And I've just, I mean, there's times where I would go into where she's been and, you know, the first time it was like, I thought she had a bad cold or something, because there was a pile of tissues. And I said, “Are you okay?” And she said, “Of course I'm okay, why?” I said, “Well, you know, there's a pile of tissues.” And she looked at me like, Well, I was praying.

SEAN: Wow.

CHIP: And she prays from her heart and she weeps before the Lord and intercedes. And I just want to make sure people that are listening, when I look at my children and when I look at what things God has done, please don't think this is an intellectual thing or just a relational thing or the right kind of family thing. “Call to Me and I will answer you and I will tell you great and mighty things,” Jeremiah 33:3.

And this morning I was reviewing a verse. And it says, “We have whatever we ask from Him…

SEAN: Amen.

CHIP: …because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.” And I would just want to leave our listeners with, when God finds a man or woman, a mom, a dad, a pastor, maybe a grandfather or grandmother, who comes before God and pours out your heart on behalf of those people that you love so deeply and you care for, God really hears. And He acts in powerful ways. Our greatest hope is what God's about. And we always have to remember we have that access. So, Sean, what a delight to have you. Thanks so much.

SEAN: It was one of my favorite conversations in a while, Chip. Thanks for having me on.

CHIP: You bet.