The Church and the Deconstruction Movement

CHIP: You may have heard of a worship leader or a famous pastor, or you may have a friend or a young person or a not so young person who says something like, well, I used to be a Christian. I used to believe in Jesus. I used to believe in the Bible. I used to go to church, but that's not for me anymore. I don't believe that anymore.

And it's called deconstruction. And it's something that's very, very common in our day. And so I wanted to pause after our series that we just had in the Book of Mark, where we looked at the gospel, who Jesus is, who He claimed to be, the life that he offers, and the call to follow him, and really ask and answer the question is this believable? Is Christianity good? Is our faith something that's still really legitimate? And how do we talk to those who say, I just don't believe that anymore.

I think the research says that two out of three young people who grow up in Bible-believing evangelical churches leave the faith five years after high school. And we have a lot of parents and grandparents and pastors and fellow young people who say to me, you know, I went to school with this person, I went to college with them, and they were on fire for the Lord, and they've walked away from the faith.

My son pastors a church here in the Silicon Valley. It's about 12 years old. And I would say the average age is maybe 28 years old, just filled with, I don't know, four or five, 600 young people. And for about five years, Theresa and I had the privilege of participating in that church. And we looked around and I mean, is no one even, middle age would be like rare, but ya know like over 55, over 65 would be like, man, I think there's maybe three people here.

And so we opened our home and had a small group. And I still remember we had about nine or 10 people come to our small group and about six of them were all mid-20s and below. And I just asked them, tell me a little bit about your story. Four of those six young people all grew up in what I would consider very strong Christian homes and very clearly Bible-believing churches. And I asked them about their journey, and they talked about college, and then they talked about their world, and then they made this statement. I don't know what I believe anymore. It's not that I don't believe in God. But I don't know what I believe, I don't know what I can trust. And after my time in college and living here in a sort of really secular place, the Silicon Valley, I'm just not sure about God, I'm not sure about Jesus, I'm not sure about what's true, I'm just not sure about Christianity anymore.

And if you've had a conversation like that with someone, I want to tell you that we're going to spend the next many programs exploring maybe why is that and what would God say to us because there is real hope? And to do that, I've invited a friend, you know, compared to me, he's young, John Dickerson, welcome.

JOHN: Hey, thanks, great to be with you.

CHIP: John and I had the privilege of working together and I'll let John give you a little bit background about his life. But when I met him, John had been an award-winning journalist from that, God led him to be a pastor and then he wrote a book that had a huge impact in the evangelical community called The Evangelical Recession. Where he did research and what he helped all of us see is we thought things were way better than they were. And he did some very journalistic research and said, you know what, we've all been saying these things about Christianity and about young people and about how many Christians there are. And it was really radical and it was very alarming.

John, God has led you and the church that you pastor in Indiana to really address this issue about the next generation. So let's just start with, give us a little background about who you are, how we know each other, and then we'll jump in.

JOHN: Yeah, thanks, Chip. This is such a joy, this entire topic of young people who've grown up in Christian homes, including middle-aged people. I'm now 42. I'm a millennial, so we've got millennials who are in their 40s now. And I want to share a little of my journey, because I'm guessing many of your listeners, it's similar to their journey. And it may be similar to their kids' journey for some who grew up in a Christian home and have wondered, is this really what I'm going to believe?

And then in our time together, I'd also just love to share about some of the young people in our movement here in Indiana, where we are seeing them wrestle through what's called Gen Z and Gen Alpha is even the younger generation coming up now. And that the struggles are not always exactly the same for everyone, but there are definitely some common themes.

So for mine, I grew up in a really strong Bible believing Christian home where it was a Christian school education, my dad was a pastor, and it was almost so strong that I didn't really have much exposure to the outside world. And so I do think for young people growing up in a really strong Christian family, that can be one of the questions.

And it typically happens, you know, somewhere between age 12 and 25. And frankly, I don't know that it just happens once. In my journey, kind of from about 14 to 25, I was kind of constantly reassessing. So I would have little breakthrough moments and then I'd have skeptical moments. And I think it's something to be aware of.

The statistic back in 2013 when the Great Evangelical Recession book came out was two out of three young people drifting away from the faith. between the ages of 18 and 29. What I'm seeing now on the front lines as our church has really made it kind of our banner to end the trend of two out of three drifting away and positively to raise the strongest generation, I'm seeing that this is getting younger and younger. It used to be 18 to 29. And then I think if you went back six or seven years ago, it was probably 16 to 29. I really think now it's almost like 12 to 29.

Just heard a story of a gal here in our church who'd grown up in a great Christian family, incredibly Bible believing, and had her crisis of faith at age 13, where she, know, strong Christian church, public school education, and for her, these just two very different worlds. One had to be right and one had to be wrong. Even though she's a generation that wouldn't profess quote absolute truth, it was just clear. Either what all my friends at school and teachers are saying is true, or what my parents are saying is true, it contradicts what do I do with it. And that was a scary moment for mom and dad. When 13-year-old Amelia comes and says, mom, don't know if I even believe in God anymore.

And so much good out of that story that I'd love to encourage any parents who are listening. It's never too late in prayer. It's never too late to be a safe place. Amelia's mom did a great thing in that she when Amelia brought her this doubt, her mom really made an effort to be a safe place for her. She didn't jump right on with a whole bunch of answers, but kind of put on a game face and said, hey, you need to know we love you no matter what, and God's gonna get us through this. And then, you the way the mom tells the story, then she went to her room and cried. But just in her crying, called out to God, God, only you can capture the heart of my daughter. Only you can show me the way forward. And by God's grace, this is one of those where God showed up.

CHIP: What you just said is so critical. The opposite response will repel your child. I have lots of stories that are very negative that go just the opposite. Like, I mean, the parents pounce on them and here's more Bible verses and what do you mean you doubt? And Jesus is the answer. And then they get uptight. And pretty soon the kid feels more and more and more and more pressure. And what it does is it pushes them away.

God is big enough to reach into your child's heart. And whether it's 12 or whether it's 15 or whether it's 22 and they've come back from college to be able to say, help me understand that. Well, what's brought you to this? Where are your doubts? And to actually reinforce that having doubts are a part of the journey of developing a deep and strong faith.

I think in some cases, parents want their kids to turn out right and to have the faith, they push them to be baptized before they're really ready. They push them to take steps that they don't really believe but they please their parents. And then they find themselves in a world where they have to answer these questions to their peers or in high school or in college. And what they realize is they really don't have a foundation. They got their parents' faith.

JOHN: That's right. I've been there with my own kids and it takes a lot of self-discipline in that moment where they're expressing doubts because we know how high the stakes are, it's eternal. And so, I have a lot of empathy for that and just completely agree. I think the biggest kind of pro tip for me on that scenario, if you have a kid or grandkid who comes to you, is the insight that what's often expressed as an intellectual doubt typically has a more emotional or relational root to it. And so ask questions to try to get to that.

CHIP: Yes.

JOHN: So for example, the story of Amelia that I was sharing a moment ago, well, she had lots of LGBTQ plus friends at school who felt like Christianity hated them. And they were feeding her a narrative, which is the mainstream cultural narrative right now. It's shifting a little bit, but it's still the predominant narrative in most of education and media that you know, Christianity is oppressive, it's anti-equal rights, and that it actually hates certain people. Of course, this isn't true, but it is what our young people, and also our people of all ages, are hearing day in and day out, from sun up to sun down. And so often, you know, what will be expressed is, don't know if I can believe, I don't know if it's true, comes out of, well, I've got this friend and I care about her, and I'm not sure how I can reconcile all that.

So continuing to ask those questions. In my case, growing up in a really biblical home that was pretty cloistered. It made me so curious about you know, what do non Christians believe? And so I was actually so curious I would go to the public library and look up, you know, what did Darwin write? What do Muslims believe? And in the community when I'd see LGBTQ people who were just so opposed to Christianity, I would actually go to a coffee shop and engage them in conversation because I felt like my parents, they were only giving me one side of the story. And there was just this natural part of growing up of, I need to see what everyone else thinks.

And so I think when parents and grandparents can be a safe place to process, here's what other people believe, and not always give the answer. Because if we just force feed them the answer, it's not going to stick. We need to help guide them on a journey. where they're able to ask the questions that they're wrestling with at their age and in their circumstance. And we kind of guide them, always guiding them back to unchanging scripture and to Christ himself.

CHIP: Amen. I remember, um I had this professor that I really liked, John, and he was brilliant. And he said, I could never figure out, and I guess part of this was a compliment, how someone with what I perceive with a pretty significant intellectual acumen could actually believe in this dead Jesus, this old Bible. He goes, I just don't get it. You just seem like...You've got more gray matter that how do you buy that old story? And that did not cause me to give up my faith. That did not cause me to question. But what it caused me to do was he asked me three or four questions, John, that I could not answer. And it sent me on the journey you're talking about where I said, Lord, I'm not going to throw my brains in the trash to be a follower. If this is true, then this will be true. And it really sent me on a journey of digging deep and exploring both philosophy and some things that actually became at the heart of some things we'll learn later about why I personally believe and how God really showed up.

So you went through your time of doubting tell us a little bit about the turning point of this is really true. This curiosity wasn't just about religious things or spiritual things. It really led you down a path to uncover, if you will, what's true in some pretty other exciting areas.

JOHN: Yeah, that's right. I ended up going into a journalism career really driven by how does the world actually work? What's actually true? What's actually not true?

And just an encouragement to every parent and grandparent. We know that promise that “The Word of God does not return void”. We know that promise that “train up a child in the way they should go, and in the end, they will not depart from it” I like that older translation because it doesn't mean they might not wander a veer off path, but in the end. Hold on to that promise.

And so for me then as I began my career as an investigative reporter, I found myself one week I'd be profiling literal heroin addicts and the next I might be profiling a billionaire or an NFL athlete and literally just got to see the entire strata of humanity from the lowest lows to the highest highs. And through it all, the principles of the Word of God were just proven true over and over again, especially so many things in Proverbs.

I remember a day where my news editor called me into his office and he said, John, you're in your 20s, but you're so worldly wise. There's times when people are lying to you as a reporter and somehow you know they're lying and most people in their 20s wouldn't. How did you get so worldly? He said. And by worldly, he meant worldly wise. And I thought honest answer book of Proverbs, like I grew up reading the book of Proverbs, you know, every month we would go through the book of Proverbs, reading the Proverb for the day. And so really the Word of God had been planted into my heart and mind as a young person. When I set out to explore life, the Word of God did its work. And of course, my parents were praying for me every single day.

And Chip, I love that story you shared about that college professor really saying how could someone as bright and promising as you believe this? I think that moment is a moment that anyone who chooses Jesus in America today they will have a moment like that and so I think what we can normalize for parents and grandparents is um you can have a kid who really does love the Lord and is seeking God and they're gonna have classmates, coworkers, bosses, college professors ridicule their faith and even say things like, seem like such a nice person, I can't believe you'd be into that. And in that moment, it will shake them a little bit.

And the hope would be, I think the prayer would be as a parent or grandparent, that you're able to be someone who is a safe place that they can go to for stability in that moment.

CHIP: And I think even as we're talking about next generation and people that are younger, there's people that made some of those decisions 10, 20, 25 years ago. And for whatever reason, they find themselves listening to you and me talk and thinking, yeah, I used to believe all that stuff. And yet they can't shake part of it and they don't have good answers. And I guess what I would say as we move forward is stick around all month. We're going to look at the intellectual issues. We're going look at the emotional issues. We're going to look at the impact of Christianity. We're going to really ask the tough questions, but also start to ask the questions as they're being asked today because they're very different than when I was growing up. My question was, is truth relative or is it absolute? I think today the question has shifted is Christianity even good?

JOHN: I would suggest that probably the younger a person is, most likely there asking is it good for the people I care about? Is it good for society? Is it good for me? And generally the older person is the more likely they're asking is it true? Now I don't think it's a hard cutoff. It's a kind of a gradient crescendo kind of transition over the generations of which one they're asking. What we've done here, and I just want to encourage parents and grandparents with this, we went all in as a church six years ago to say, we believe we're called by God to do everything in our power to end the trend of two out of three young people drifting away.

So Chip mentioned my first book back in 2013 called The Great Evangelical Recession, wrote that as an investigative reporter. There were six trends of decline in the American church. One of those trends is this trend of two out of three young people. drifting away. Obviously, if that continues, then Christianity will eventually just dissolve as a cultural force.

And so as I prayed after that book made a bit of a splash and God called me to be a lead pastor, God, what are you calling us as a church to do? He just, of those six trends, said, focus on this one. If you could be a church where you'd end the trend of two out of three young people drifting away, like the book of Psalms says, “We all labor in vain unless the Lord builds the house.”

And so, setting out that goal, that's an impossible goal. And if you're listening to this and you have a loved one who's drifted away and you feel like it's impossible, one, you're correct. But two, we have a God who does impossible things. And I wanna encourage you, we've seen God bless our prayers and our efforts over these last six years. Our congregation has gone all in on this financially. We've actually hired a whole additional staff team outside of our normal kids and student ministry called our Youth Worldview team. One of them has a PhD in apologetics and they are building a curriculum that helps our middle and high school students wrestle through all these questions at church in a safe place. But it's not just intellectual, it's all about relationships as well.

And I'd encourage you with your kids and your grandkids, always be encouraging them Here's the way I say it to my kids. What are the three most important choices you'll make in your life? First, do you trust in Jesus as your savior? Have you, you know, received him as your Lord? Second, who will you marry? And third, who will your closest friends be? Because you're gonna marry someone who comes from your friend group. You know, that relational piece, we can force feed the intellectual curriculum. But if a teenager, and this is also true for someone in their 20s, 30s, 40s, really for all of us, if their four or five closest friends aren't also living it out and experiencing it, it's not going to fully stick.

And so we use a paradigm that Chip, one of our good friends, Aaron Pierce gave to me called head, heart, and feet. And we actually utilize that paradigm through all of our Youth Worldview curriculum for our church that The intellectual side is so important and we go really deep with them on that. And different ones have a different hunger and appetite and it varies. You know, it's not like all 14 year olds have the same appetite. It goes in waves, it comes and goes in waves. They're always kind of asking, is it true, is it good, and what does it look like? But we try to give them really good tools.

So for example, we've now kind of trained our young people to say, you know what, Isaac Newton, Martin Luther King Jr., Clara Barton, were all really strong believers in the same thing, I believe. So if you think that they were bad for society or you think that they were anti-intellectual, sorry. And so, I mean, our teenagers have learned that, and that's just one little zinger, but that's kind of symbolic of us training them to understand the movement you're a part of is not anti-intellectual. In fact, not just Newton, Johannes Kepler, Blaise Pascal, lot of the founders of modern science were Bible-believing Christians.

CHIP: Well John, that is so true because so often there's not a sense of history. And by the way, could we be honest too? Some of the snapshots are really ugly, really bad, really anti-intellectual, really bigoted, really narrow, and have treated people terribly. So let's just, know, part of the PR problem, if you will, is a lot of Christians don't live like Christians. But when you open up and say, wait a second, where did, where did public education, where was that birthed? Hospitals, orphanages, where was that birthed?

We're going to talk about all these things because you wrote another book called Jesus Skeptic, and you really addressed the goodness of Christianity and the historical impact over centuries that what I find is when old people or young people read that book, You know, you just scratch your head and you go, no, wait a second, John. Are you telling me that the Harvard that we know today or the other Ivy League schools today that, you know, are spouting things that are like, whoa. So, I mean, their insignias are biblical verses about the truth. And, you know, when you point those things out and instead of a young person or maybe a not so young person feel like Wow, especially here in the Silicon Valley, you can feel like you're such a minority.

But it takes that lens and you pull it back over the last 2000 years and you say, oh my, the shaping of law, the shaping of justice, the idea that mercy is a- is a virtue. That wasn't true in the New Testament times. It was power. It was ruthless that every human being has value. It's so interesting at times when I'll, hang out with some people that are very strong on social justice. And I get it. They’re pounding the table on some of these values and attacking Christianity. And I want to say, pause. Do you know where that came from? And so I think we've got to help people understand who is Jesus, what has he done, and what do you believe him to be?
CHIP: It's so interesting at times when I'll, hang out with some people that are very strong on social justice. And I get it. They’re pounding the table on some of these values and attacking Christianity. And I want to say, pause. Do you know where that came from? Do you know where that came from? And so I think education really is important. I think we've got to help people understand who is Jesus, what has he done, and what do you believe him to be?

JOHN: Amen. It's so true. And one of the really unique things about this book, Jesus Skeptic, is it shows actual pictures and images of these artifacts because we live at a time when if you tell a young person, hey, did you know Harvard was actually started by a group of pastors? They were Puritan Christians. It was a Bible college. And it's not just Harvard. Every single one of the top 10 universities in the world were all started by Christians as Bible seminaries. They'll look at you just be like, there's no way that's true. So what we do in the Jesus Skeptic book is we actually have a picture. Here's the founding charter of Harvard. It's a historic artifact. And it says, this would be Yale's, it says, for the propagation of the Protestant Christian religion. Harvard has its own language for that and similar with the scientific fathers if you tell someone, know Isaac Newton, Blaise Pascal, Johannes Kepler The list goes on we're devout followers of Jesus people say no way it's true So we actually show images of their journals where they've written, you know poems about their love for God.

Same with women's rights the ending of slavery the creation not just public education, but literacy in general and this is all public record. You go back 500 years, most of the world, 90 some percent was illiterate. Literacy only happened where Christians were, because they wanted their kids to learn how to read the Bible. So even the word kindergarten comes out of the German Lutheran movement to say we want to teach our kinders, German for children, how to read so they can read the Bible. And once you start to see it and you see the undeniable evidence, by God's grace, we are seeing this open up the eyes of young people.

So earlier I was telling you about Amelia, who is 13 and was completely doubting all of it. And when she went to her mom, her mom, by God's grace, didn't express her panic, played it cool, said, hey, let's talk it through. Then went to her room, closed the door, cried, prayed. And as she was praying, God reminded her of this book, Jesus Skeptic. So then Amelia, And this is that thing where only God can control the timing. Ya know, if you hand a book to a teenager, typically they're not going to read it. But Amelia was curious and she was hungry. And her mom said, here's a book about, you said, is Christianity good? And that really is the thesis, if you will, of Jesus skeptic. Now in my journey, if you go back 20 years, when I was a teenager, my journey was, it true? And so for me, it was a lot of Josh McDowell books. It was a lot of resources around skeptics answered, and God used that.

So Amelia had a very similar moment with God to what I had 16 or so years ago, and she had it now, and Jesus Skeptic opened her eyes to, oh Christianity is good for the world. It's full of data that isn't just from Christian resources so lots of World Health and other data of what are the countries where women have the best rights and it's all countries you just then parallel what's the percentage of Christians? What are the countries where women have the worst rights and it's countries where Christianity is illegal? And at the end of Jesus Skeptic, lots of evidence that Jesus actually lived. That didn't used to be a question, but now it is. And so the evidence is overwhelming. And again, we show the artifacts. We show a Josephus manuscript. We show, you know, the coins of Herodias and others who wrote about Jesus of Nazareth at that time, even though they weren't Christians, Jewish, Greek, and Roman writers of the time.

So all that to say God used that book to get Amelia to, okay, Christianity is good. And then he used Lee Strobel's work to move her to, Jesus is God. So Christianity is good and Jesus is God. And God answered her mom's prayers. And not only is she now a believer, but she's now a leader. There's a group of about 20, they're now sophomores in high school. So it's been a couple years here and they get together and they're all girls who are just in love with Jesus. And they kind of lead their own Bible study. They're all public school kids and they get together at our church or at homes and just have these times of worship and Bible study, something that only God could do.

And so parents, grandparents, be encouraged, keep praying, keep providing the resources, keep being a safe place that they can ask these questions and God will answer your prayers in time.

CHIP: What a great reminder and a great word. What grew out of my journey was I really had to stop and I had to say, why do I believe? And because I was ministering at Santa Cruz at the time, it was a super progressive area. I mean very anti-Christian, anti-God. And yet we saw literally thousands of people come to church, come to Christ. And when they did, then it would be like, well, wait a second, this is counterintuitive to everything I've ever known.

And so I wanted to write a book from my own journey and from the research I'd done. How do you sit with a cup of coffee and not give people a bunch of facts, but how do you have a conversation, is it intellectually feasible that the documents of the Bible could actually be true? Is it true that, like you say, was Jesus actually a historical person? And what is amazing, John, you know I didn't know this, but my journey sent me on a level of research that was like, wow, wow.

And actually that's Lee Strobel's story as well. I mean, his wife came to know Christ and was like, my lands, what am I gonna do? She's into this religious junk and I've got to prove it's not true. And so we're gonna have a great month together where some will be some interviews, some will be some questions, some geared toward young people. Other stuff we're going to do is just going to be, okay, are you open? Are you willing to look at the facts? Could the Bible be true? We'll look at some scientific issues like, okay, in light of DNA, in light of the most recent scientific research by non-Christians who are now saying, well, there's a lot of options and even from Darwin's own words, we're not saying that the God of the Bible made everybody. But this did not happen by random chance. It is absolutely impossible. So anyway, we're going to have a lot of fun with all of this.

I do want to say something too, I've never heard of anyone doing this, and I'm so thrilled that you've done it. You've actually come up with a game plan that starts about 12 years old, middle school, through age 29, or like age 30. So it's not like you send them off to college, say good luck, hope things go well.

So talk about why you do what you do, what you're actually doing in this sort of raising up the strongest generation. And then be unapologetic. If someone wanted to get this, tell them how to get it. I mean, one of our roles at Living on the Edge is we're a catalyst. If there's something great other people have produced, We want everyone to hear about it and get it.

JOHN: All the resources that we are building are completely free and available to any parent and any church. So if you go to worldview, that's one word, worldview.cp for connection point, dot church. So worldview.cp dot church. Everything is hosted there. And so if you're at a church where you have Sunday school or you have youth group, whatever model you use as a church, this curriculum is available. The curriculum is built, like Chip said, from age 12 all the way up to age 29. Our focus in the local church is on middle school and high school. And really what we're doing is we're trying to anticipate what are the obstacles to faith.

And so we have different curriculum pieces, everything from here's an overview of world religions so that kids who attend our church know here's what a Muslim believes, here's what an atheist believes. We treat atheism and agnosticism as a world religion and we show where each of them break down intellectually. We show the cultural results. And then the other issues culturally that our young people run into, for example, sexuality. You what is biblical sexuality? And not only what does Scripture teach about biblical sexuality, including our LGBTQ classmates and coworkers, that's the world we live in, their classmates and coworkers and relatives, right? There can be siblings or cousins. What does Scripture say about it? And then how do we hold that position in a way that is full of grace and full of truth? In a way that says, hey, if you claim to be a follower of Jesus, here's what your life needs to look like. If you're not yet a follower of Jesus, my priority is to get you to the foot of the cross and let you know about Jesus, not to just change you morally, but to get you to Jesus. And we know that if anyone gets to Jesus, then he changes us morally.

So it is a wide array of intellectual, cultural, social, even some historical things where we feel like maybe if they're public school educated, they might be getting a different narrative that we kind of have to deconstruct.

CHIP: Yes, yes.

JOHN: And what's really kind of encouraging, you know you hear this metaphor of a pendulum swinging in culture. And in the last 10 years, probably, we saw the pendulum swing really extreme, anti-Christian and pro a bunch of other stuff. What I'm seeing right now, with especially what I'd say is like kind of 8th to 12th graders right now, is the pendulums almost go in the other way.

And when I described at the beginning of our time, I grew up in such a cloistered Christian environment that I, in my teenage curiosity thought they're hiding something from me. I need to go see what else is out there. We are meeting more and more teenagers who feel that way about Christianity. They're like, everyone says it's bad, but I know Christians who are good, what's it actually about? And then we're able to meet them there, take them into Jesus skeptic. look, historically, Christians have been good. And there have been bad people in history who claim to be Christians.

CHIP: Yes.

JOHN: And that goes all the way back to Jesus. He said there would be wheat, there would be tares. There was a Judas from Jesus own 12.

So we can acknowledge were there some people who claimed to be Christians who owned slaves, who did bad things? Yes, there were. But what our young people are being taught is only that. And when we come in and we show actual documentation to show that group was the minority, and if you look at that group's writings, they weren't really sincerely following Jesus. They were just kind of utilizing Christianity for their own benefit. They weren't the sincere, what did Jesus' words say? How are we living it out?

So I could go on and on, but we've got this system now be patient with us. We're still building a lot of this the curriculum for 8th to 12th is built. What we're now doing is we pair every high school graduate with a career mentor. So whatever field they're going into let's say they're gonna go pre-law we pair them up with an attorney in our church to guide them through their college years. And then the other thing we do is wherever they go to college if they don't go to a Christian college We partner with the Christian ministries on campus and we know those ministries. So we're in Indiana, if they're going to Purdue, we know exactly what ministry, we're walking them there, we're introducing them to the leader so that during their college years, they're surrounded by believers, they have a career mentor, and then we continue with them to age 29.

And by God's grace, only God could do it, but we believe he's gonna use us to end the trend of two out of three drifting. So all that to say, our tools are completely free. We'd love to share it with all of you. Maybe someday this could all be nationwide where we've got career mentors all around the country, but right now we're kind of building it all in the local church and willing to share it freely with parents and other churches.

CHIP: Well, thank you first for doing it. Second, thanks for being generous. And just one thing I know that you didn't say is you kind of gave the curriculum for the head side of it, but you all actually have not just the relationships afterwards, but during, and you have the feet, you have these young people interacting with believers and unbelievers and meeting some of the least of these needs. So instead of this over in this church and this is what we believe and there's poor people over here or there's a gay pride parade, they're getting in the world, building relationships, meeting these people, loving them and learning.

You know, we all have stereotypes and if you're a follower of Jesus, you're narrow, anti-intellectual, bigoted, on and on and on. And then like you said, until they meet a genuine follower of Christ. Well, my experience is a lot of Christians, they have this idea that everyone who says they're transgender or everyone who's LGBTQ is like, they've got this picture. And I just want to scream, people are individuals. And you never learn to love You don't love them. You don't judge them. Every single person has a story and they believe what they believe or they're living how they live or they have a behavior or a lifestyle that actually makes sense from where they've come from. And most of them have never met a Christian that loves them, accepts them. You don't have to agree with their lifestyle or what they think or why.

And I just love that you are having young people build relationships with people that aren't in that sort of, what'd you call it, cloistered (JOHN: Yeah.) sort of view and have the confidence that guess what, that's a good thing. Moms and dads, relax. They need to have friends that are very, very different. Their closest friends need to be on the same page. So I just think you are, you're addressing the intellectual, the head, the heart issues and also the feet. You're taking them to some places that maybe moms and dads might be a little uptight now and then, but you've seen some really good things happen, haven't you?

JOHN: Oh we have. And you know, the encouragement for parents and grandparents is, you know, what we believe really is true and it really does work. And so that's where your safety is. It's not that they'll never encounter something opposite. The only way for that to happen is to you know, seal them off from all of society. So they will encounter a lot of opposition, but the truth prevailed. It really does work. And that's what the Jesus Skeptic Book demonstrates. It works for societies and it works for individuals. And so we want to be guiding them, coaching them. And that's where the more we can be a safe place for them to process those things. And of course, we want to be praying, God, bring them close friends. I know with my own kids, that's a daily thing. I'll go through seasons where I'm watching and their closest friends and you know for one or another, hey Lord please bring maybe a little stronger Christian or bring you know.

And so keep praying and Chip I just want to thank the Living on the Edge family for really these resources that our church is building are the result in a lot of ways of the time where I got to be mentored by you. So anyone who's supporting you and what you're doing, what God's doing through me is fruit that is connected to your branch, which is of course connected to the vine of Christ Himself. But thank you to everyone who's invested into Chip because he's invested into me in a way that God's really using right now and I'm humbled to be part of.

CHIP: Well, we are a disciple making ministry seeking to produce Romans 12 Christians who live out their faith. And John, you are doing that in a tremendous way and it brings me great joy. And you talked very clearly about, you know, if your kid goes to a secular university, a Purdue or whatever, you know, good schools. I went to a secular university and please don't assume that because your son or daughter goes to a Christian university that all the students there and the values there will be what you hope they'll be.

Therefore, you can take your foot off the gas because what I've found is one of the most dangerous places in the world for Christians to be is in what I call a pseudo-Christian environment. In other words, it verbally says, this is what we believe, but then, you know, underneath of it, the great majority, maybe sometimes even the professors, but usually the faculty is on board. But if there's a significant percentage of students that really aren't walking with God and they're living alternative lifestyles, what you experience is a level of hypocrisy that turns you off.

And so I would just say, choose your college as well. And also don't assume, even if it's a good school, I have a granddaughter who's a sophomore in an excellent, I mean, a really, really excellent Christian university that's doing so many things so well, so right. And she was home on break and she said, grandpa, Could you pray that God will bring some really serious Christians into my life? She said, you know, they all, you know, they love God and we go to classes and we're learning the Bible. But I mean, people that really hunger for Jesus that are in the Bible on a regular basis that want their lives to count. I'm just having a hard time finding those kind of Christians. And she said, and you know, I struggle. I want to be that kind of a Christian. And so I think your word about who your friends are is a really good word. And just say to parents, they still need your support.

One of the cop outs that we can as parents have or grandparents is, they're just going through a phase. So we back away and somehow unconsciously, five years or 10 years, they're going to come out the other end. Well, they come out the other end when people intervene and pray passionately and ask questions and aren't afraid to gently rock the boat. And so is your boyfriend a Christian? And if you hear things like, well, I think he believes in God. Well, that's not exactly what I ask. And tell me a little bit about your friends, because they still respect you and they've probably heard the right things. But now they're on their own and they're taking some steps and making some decisions, we as parents can't be afraid of a little rejection or maybe even a little mild conflict to raise those issues gently and get them on the table because if we don't, there's not probably anyone who will. So just a word from a concerned father, grandparent, fellow pastor here. And John, any thoughts as we close up today?

JOHN: I think my closing thought would just be an encouragement to parents, grandparents, pastors, listening, who you know someone, you're praying for them, and maybe it seems impossible. Six years ago, when we as a church circled up around, we're gonna do everything in our power to raise the strongest generation, the statistics, the cultural currents all looked impossible. And after six years of praying daily and doing everything within our power, including financially investing, we really are seeing God bring a harvest. There's kind of a youth revival movement happening in our teens and students. And it's six years of work.

And so I just want to encourage you, don't give up on praying. Don't give up on, you know, sending those different Jesus skeptic or Chip's book, Why I Believe, other resources that you can get to folks. Get them those resources, keep praying, keep just asking curious questions. Even if there's been conflict in the past, don't give up. The more curious you'll be and draw them out and let them talk, it can repair past damage. So be curious, ask those questions, keep praying. God can absolutely do this.

CHIP: Amen. My final thought would be all the research tells us that of children who drift away, one of the core issues was the lack of seeing a vibrant faith in their family. And it's never too late. But Jesus in Luke 6:40 said a student when he is fully trained or she is fully trained will be just like his teacher. And so the one thing that we can do that we have 100% control over is we can ask ourselves, Lord, does my life reflect Jesus? Am I walking with you in a way that my child would like to emulate? Everything from how I drive to where my values are, to what I watch, to how we spend our money? Not in any legalistic, but is Jesus, the focus, the center, and the Lord of my life. Your life has such power. And even for some of you who feel like, wow, thanks Chip, way too little, way too late. I have seen and have had to in certain areas of my life pause, stop, get one of my adult children and say, you know, I did not model this well and I wish I would have, and I think it's done some damage. And I'm going to ask you to forgive me. And I'm addressing that in my life.

And that's a very humbling thing to do, but it's amazing that I think brokenness, John, is something that opens doors. You know, to be able to say to one of your kids, know, I wish I would have done better when I recognize I blew it in these ways or...You know, I did some things now looking back that you've kind of emulated my example and you certainly don't want the consequences that I've experienced.

And so I think it's that heartfelt, deep love, fervent prayer. And then none of us are perfect. Let's keep walking with the Lord, understanding He's our Father. He's a patient. He's understanding. And He longs to empower us to be the moms, dads, grandparents, young people that he wants us to be.

So my friend, thanks for what you're doing there in Indiana. And my prayer is that you will be inundated with people going to worldview.cp.church and people will be downloading things and discipling their kids. And we're going to see our youth and our young adults walk with God in a new way because we're going to focus on it the way you guys are. So thanks again, my friend.

JOHN: Amen.