Doubt vs. Unbelief: Helping Young People Navigate Faith Challenges, Part 2

CHIP: When you do the research, you know, part of the completely secular research about what kind of environments people thrive in and, you constantly come back to what the Scripture teaches about what a man needs to be and cherishing and caring and protecting and loving and what a woman needs to be and what they need to do and the mutual submission to one another and creating this environment where, kids can flourish and feel loved and valued.

And part of the challenge is there's not a lot of those kind of models, and that the family has broken down in such a way that a lot of people are looking to social media or the culture to try and figure out what's up, what's down.

What's your counsel to that couple who says, “We really want to raise our kids in a way that honors God, we know they’re being bombarded by social media, “We don't want to be too strict because if we say no, no, no to everything, and on the other hand, there are real dangers. Sean, you're an apologist, you're a dad, you work with students. Please give me some wise counsel about raising my kids in a way that will help them flourish.”

SEAN: Going back to at least 1972, and this comes from Christian Smith, a sociologist at Notre Dame, in his book, Handing Down the Faith, he says the data consistently shows that parents have the most significant influence on the faith of their kids. Now Netflix and TikTok and the educational system and Hollywood has an influence, but not the same level of influence parents can and do have.

So what does kind of the data and Scripture show the best chance of passing on our faith? And by the way, there's no formula to do this. You can do everything right and kids have free will. And I was thinking to those parents earlier when you said you wept about your son and what he shared with you.

One of the things I tell parents, I say, “You know, if your kids are not following the Lord, remember God's heart is more broken than your heart or my heart could ever be.” Jesus wept over Jerusalem. So that's one place to start with. God is pursuing and seeking them in ways we can't and won't understand until the story's already done.

I actually co-wrote a book with a friend of mine. It was called So the Next Generation Will Know. And we had one whole chapter in this. It’s, he's a cold case detective, J. Warner Wallace, former atheist. He actually became a Christian when he examined the Gospel of Mark through forensic analysis and was like, “This is reliable testimony.” Well, we had a whole chapter on all the studies we could find on why kids disengage the faith and tried to bring it all together.

And to me, the most significant study I'm aware of comes from a sociologist at USC, He wrote a book about a decade ago called Faith and Families and it was published with Oxford Press. And they studied thirty-five hundred people, thirty-five years, four generations. And what they said, the most significant factor in faith transmission is a quote, Chip, “Warm relationship with the father.” Number one.

CHIP: Wow.

SEAN: Now it doesn't make the mother unimportant. That's not the point, but sociologically, a man tends to be more of a wild card. And there might be something about the father taking the lead the way God wired us, but nonetheless, number one, model.

Number two, build intimate, close relationships with your kids. And by the way, in that study, they also said that grandparents are playing an increasingly significant role in faith transmission of their kids.

Third, is have meaningful conversations about faith issues with your kids. Not lectures, just conversations. Whether it's like what I'm doing with my son at breakfast, whether it's over the dinner table. Some people do formal devotions. I don't really do formal devotions. Maybe in the morning my son and I are doing that kind of thing a little bit. But just as opportunities arise in the rhythm of life, having conversations about faith.

So, I shared this with Jim Daly; we were interviewing him on our podcast. I said, “Jim, here's what I think. Number one, model. Number two, build relationships. Number three, have spiritual conversations.” He goes, “I agree. And fourth, if you make mistakes, go to your kids and own it and model what it means to show humility and forgiveness.” And I thought, I'm officially going to have to add that to my list now because Jim said it from Focus on the Family. So I think that's, statistically speaking and biblically, you find a lot of this in Deuteronomy 6:4. That's what I think as a whole the research really shows.

And of course, getting your kids into a church. I mean, there's other things you want to do on top of that, but that's the bottom line, what I think the data points to.

CHIP: Well, I've pastored for about thirty-five or forty years. And I can tell you that it's true, anecdotally, I meet so many parents who drop their kids off at church, who have a faith that semi-matters, but it's not really attractive. And the disconnect is, you know, I put them in a Christian school, I dropped them at the high school group, I've convinced them even to go to a Christian college and they're now, you know, three years, five years out of college or in the middle of college, they're living with their boyfriend or they've come out of this or come out of that and they can't make the connection that behavior always really reveals our genuine beliefs.

So behavior said how we appeared in front of other people mattered most. Behavior said work and money and where we lived and what we owned mattered most. And you can say whatever you want, you can go to church, you can send them to all kind of schools. But it is those connections of the heart and where they see you trusting Christ.

And I will say, I think the one that Jim hit on, and maybe it's because I didn't grow up as a believer, but so when I became a believer and then I became a dad, and I happened to have the privilege of adopting my older two boys, and it's a long story, many of the Living on the Edge people know, but my wife came to Christ after she was abandoned. So when I got married, I became an instant father.

SEAN: Yeah.

CHIP: And it was like, I have no idea. My dad was a, my dad was a good guy, a World War II vet, Guam, Iwo Jima, Purple Heart, deeply damaged alcoholic. So he tried really hard, but I didn't learn how to be a dad. And so it was like starting from scratch.

I wrote my thesis in seminary on the role and responsibility of the father and transmitting values in the family. As I- as I wrote that, one of the things I came to was, when you blow it, own it. I just, if I got a dollar for every time I had to apologize to my kids for, oh, you know, I disciplined you and what you did was really, really wrong, but how I did it and the tone of my voice and I was angry and, when you get on one knee to a three or four-year-old and tell them you're sorry with tears in your eyes and they sit on your lap and they apologize to you and you apologize to them and you learn to talk to Jesus together. That was, we were just learning as a family, but I think those are the kind of things that really help kids understand this is real, this is from the heart and um those four things you shared I think are going to be a great value.

Now I’ve got to follow up with… If someone said, “Look, Sean, I'm really committed as a grandparent or as a pastor, maybe I've been doing this for a while, I'm a little out of touch. Would you walk me through maybe the top four or five books, as you see what's happening in the culture, that would really help parents and grandparents deal with the issues that they're facing?” And please at least include a couple or more of your own.

SEAN: Fair enough. So when it comes to kids, there's a relational component and there's an intellectual component. You know, it says in Thessalonians, Paul says, “We not only gave you the Gospel,” the content, “but our very own lives,” relationship. So relationally, I mean, basically your question, I've been asked this for almost twenty years-plus, is there any book for parents, Christian school teachers, grandparents on how to pass on the faith that's biblically rooted but practical?

So finally, J. Warner Wallace and I wrote that. It's called So the Next Generation Will Know. It's a how-to book. It's like practical steps to take with this generation. So that's probably the number one, and I wrote it because I just couldn't find a book that I felt was out there. And it was one of the easiest books to write because it's stuff I think about and I try to do in my whole life. So that's the relational side. And, gosh, there's some other great books on building relationships with kids too.

But I, you know, on the truth side, you know, More Than a Carpenter, we just updated it together. My dad's book he wrote in 1977 and worldwide it's like thirty million in print, I think a hundred and twenty languages. And it's one of the most widely read Christian books of the past, I guess, fifty years almost. We just did an update this past fall where it's better, it's shorter, it's crisper than ever. And so that's an easy book to read with a young person, just chapter by chapter, section by section. And it's framed with my dad's story and journey. So it's not just a book of facts. I think that's one reason why it's so interesting.

The other one is there's something called The Apologetic Study Bible For Students. And I had a chance to be the general editor on this with a whole team putting it together. And it's a study Bible and it's a great study Bible that has notes at the bottom, but we have all these features like little archeological finds, sidebars, there's dozens and dozens of them on like common twisted scriptures that Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses or Muslims will do and quick responses to them kind of put in there.

We add stories of key apologists like C.S. Lewis and my father's story and others are placed in there because stories are interesting and encouraging. But the main feature is just the top one hundred and forty questions this generation is asking about the Bible, about science, about homosexuality and transgender, about hell, about evil. And I got this from talking to students, I talked to youth pastors, I mean, I narrowed down, like things like, is it okay to get a tattoo? Like, students are asking that. What does the Bible say about that? And we got some of the best apologists to answer them in just one page.

So I've told a lot of parents, I'm like, “What a resource. Just read this with your kid and say, ‘Do you agree? Do you disagree? What stands out to you? What's interesting to you? What would you have added?’” And you just talk with them one by one. That's a hundred and forty conversations with young people.

CHIP: Wow.

SEAN: And so that's in part why we did it. But I also recommend ministries like Stand to Reason by Greg Koukl. Every parent should be listening to the Stand to Reason podcast.

Now, as far as talking to kids about sex, my parents wrote a book, the title is Straight Talk with Your Kids About Sex. It's the best guide I'm aware of for parents. Here's how you do this, here's when you start, here's what it looks like. And just a wonderful practical guide. Straight Talk with Your Kids About Sex by Josh and Dottie McDowell.

One of my favorite books I wrote is called Chasing Love. And I wrote it for my own kids…

CHIP: Oh, wow.

SEAN: …because I couldn't find a book that I thought was on relationships and dating and sex that was biblically based and relevant to the pornography just phenomenon today, to the transgender conversation, to questions like living together. So that's a book on relationships.

This week, I had a parent say, “I'm just reading it chapter by chapter with my kids.” And I was like, “Amen.” Like I just wish more parents would do that. That's how you relationally pass on the truth. And I think most kids want to have these kinds of conversations. I really do. If we listen, we do it respectfully, we don't force stuff on them, I really think they want to have these kinds of conversations.

CHIP: Well, I would really affirm that. And the thing I've told parents is they're going to have the conversation and they're going to hear about all of this. And they're going to hear it from someone other than you unless you take the initiative.

SEAN: That’s right.

CHIP: And in our day, it probably needs to start far younger than you think because I read a study recently where the, one of the number one issues, fifth and sixth graders, was sex. That pornography addiction starts as early as eleven years old. Some of us from our background, you think, How could that be possible? And yet it is, it's a very different world now.

SEAN: I think that's right, which is why one of the things my parents point out in that book is start the conversation early.

CHIP: Yes.

SEAN: Start it early in age-appropriate ways…

CHIP: Yep.

SEAN: …but start it early. And again, if you're modeling a marriage, you know one thing my parents would say to me, Chip? Sometimes when I was younger, when I wanted to do something I thought was a good idea and my parents did not, my dad would say, he'd say, “Son, do you want the kind of future marriage and relationship that your mom and I have?” Now you only ask that question if you know the answer in advance.

CHIP: Right.

SEAN: And I'd say yes. He'd say, “Then if you want that, the decision you're about to make is going to set you back and make it more painful and difficult than you know to get there in life. Don't do it, son, because I love you and I can see how it would affect you.” Now I'm not saying I always listened, I still might have done stupid things, but it's like pointing back towards your modeling, leaning into the relationship that you have. And that, you know, that really worked for me at least.

CHIP: As I would analyze our conversation, which, you know, just because the way my brain works, I do stuff like that even when I'm in it. If I was on the outside of our conversation and I would think about, Okay, now this was about apologetics; this was about dealing with doubt. And as I'm listening to you two, it seems like, rather than seventy-five new facts and the Bible says this about that and here's all the things that you need to fill your kids' heads with, or here's the seven best arguments for God and this – you guys spent a lot of time talking about relationships, connection, authenticity, having genuine, real answers, being very open, getting resources, taking time to actually study, talk, read, have conversations.

And it really begs the question of building a home life and building a relationship where this matters more than being in the car four times a week for youth sports or for work that takes you from, well, I have to leave the house at six a.m. to beat traffic and I get home about eight thirty and a couple nights a week I get to tuck my kids in.

I've had that conversation with a lot of very committed Christians, very successful executives to which I follow with, “Well, tell me about the dreams you have for your marriage and for your kids and for your future.” And they do. And then I say, “Well, I just want you to know that your current behavior has a trajectory that I will guarantee a hundred percent you will not fulfill those dreams. You will not. So, I mean, you can keep doing what you're doing and you can tell yourself, but that behavior, that lifestyle, that lack of connection, I can tell you for sure that these things that you want and you're dreaming and thinking about will never be a reality.”

And one of the most, I would say, encouraging of all the things I ever get to do is be in a study with those kind of guys for six or nine months or a year and watch them make decisions that are so counter to the demands of Silicon Valley, and to get their priorities in a way that you know, they're tucking their kids in bed. They're eating dinner as a family. They're doing some things that in the long term are way more important than those extra hours of work.

As we wrap it up, one of, kind of, the guys that influenced me, and I'm not a manager, I'm just a reader, but Peter Drucker was, you know, sort of the great wisdom of management, and he had a few one-liners that have always stuck with me, and one of them was, you know, “Build on islands of strength, as opposed to trying to solve all your weaknesses.” And he was speaking a lot organizationally. But just as we wrap things up, you know, because we've talked about dealing with issues and problems and solutions, you've got some kids at Biola that you would just say, man alive, I hope my twelve-year-old when they're nineteen or twenty-one is like Bobby or Mary or, I mean, they're walking with God, they have a heart for God. What is it about kids that you see are the kind of kids who are changing the world and they're going to change the world for Christ? What are some things they have in common that you would say to our audience, “Hey, if you want to build on islands of strength, if you want to, you know, focus on what works instead of always being problem oriented, what would those things be?

SEAN: So I have one undergrad class at Biola. It's an upper level kind of apologetics, evangelism, social issues class. So I have about twenty-five students and I'm consistently impressed at the caliber and motivation of our students. It blows me away. Like it's really, it's really amazing the kind of young people, and people dog Gen Z. I think, oh, I’ve got twenty-five in my class every semester and these students are sharp and motivated and they care. Most of my students, I'm in a, I teach primarily at a grad program in apologetics that's distance-based now. So that's up to people who are, you know, twenty-five to probably seventy-five years old, every profession you can imagine.

But probably every semester I have students who come to me, some other students at Biola who just know me but don't have me in class, want to have office hours, And either they have questions and doubts and I listen to them, I ask them questions, I try to get to the root of it, I don't freak out, I just try to help them think through where they're at and why and what it means to connect with God. One thing I would say about the impressive students is I do have a good number of students, Chip, that I'm amazed at who don't come from the kind of family backgrounds we've been discussing here.

CHIP: Yeah.

SEAN: I have two in particular at least that I can think of in a class right now that have told me, you know, “My parents are not Christians. They don't love the Lord. I have a heart and I have a burden for them.” And it's just kind of amazing. Oftentimes they were connected in a church; oftentimes they had a Christian mentor. You know, there's someone else in their life that came along and just helped and encouraged them. I have a number of students with amazing faith from broken homes, you know, more than you would think today.

And a lot of them say, “You know what? My dad wasn't there, but my mom just prayed for me and built relationships with me and took me to church, didn't drop me off but she was there with us, went to the sports things with us and just sacrificed and prayed for us.”

And so, you know, there's no formula I can say, I don't want parents to hear this and be discouraged because they don't have the kind of family background that we described. That is God's design and that gives students the best chance statistically speaking of following the Lord. But there are plenty of exceptions when the Holy Spirit works, when somebody's, you know, confronted appropriately with the Gospel, has a Christian mentor in their life. And I see those students at Biola and they're flourishing and they're doing well and they're world changers too.

CHIP: Well, that's a great word of hope. I think you described both my wife and me. You know, neither of us Christian homes, both alcoholic homes, some real tragedy and a mentor in each of our lives. And that's hope. When people are open, God's at work. And in fact, He's at work even when people aren't open.

And yeah, so Sean, thank you so very much for taking the time and sharing and I'm glad I got to know you personally and I've got some books to buy. Oh, I mean that. I'm a big believer and, you know, lifelong learner and I would just end with one thought because you mentioned about three or four or five times just toward the very end and when I think about our kids, my wife prays like few people I know and I'm sure there's people who pray longer and deeper. I've just never met them. And I've just, I mean, there's times where I would go into where she's been and, you know, the first time it was like, I thought she had a bad cold or something, because there was a pile of tissues. And I said, “Are you okay?” And she said, “Of course I'm okay, why?” I said, “Well, you know, there's a pile of tissues.” And she looked at me like, Well, I was praying.

SEAN: Wow.

CHIP: And she prays from her heart and she weeps before the Lord and intercedes. And I just want to make sure people that are listening, when I look at my children and when I look at what things God has done, please don't think this is an intellectual thing or just a relational thing or the right kind of family thing. “Call to Me and I will answer you and I will tell you great and mighty things,” Jeremiah 33:3.

And this morning I was reviewing a verse. And it says, “We have whatever we ask from Him…

SEAN: Amen.

CHIP: …because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.” And I would just want to leave our listeners with, when God finds a man or woman, a mom, a dad, a pastor, maybe a grandfather or grandmother, who comes before God and pours out your heart on behalf of those people that you love so deeply and you care for, God really hears. And He acts in powerful ways. Our greatest hope is what God's about. And we always have to remember we have that access. So, Sean, what a delight to have you. Thanks so much.

SEAN: It was one of my favorite conversations in a while, Chip. Thanks for having me on.

CHIP: You bet.