An Interview with Jennie Allen

CHIP: Well, welcome. Jennie Allen here, a special time that I get to interview you. And we have something in common in that almost twenty years ago I wrote a book called Holy Ambition. When did you first hear about Holy Ambition and maybe what kind of impact did it have on your life?

JENNIE: So, I look back and I’m going to back up just a little bit so that you hear the context of when I found Holy Ambition and what it did for me. I look back at my life and I was a good church girl, I pretty much obeyed my parents, I only tested that so far and largely was a good kid. And would have said the whole time I was a child that I was a Christian. But really didn’t come into saving knowledge of faith until I was seventeen.

When I was seventeen and I met Jesus, it was a zealot was born. Like, I was Paul. I couldn’t not talk about Jesus. I talked about Him to everybody in my life. And they were completely annoyed. They were like, “You really are out of control.” And so, I actually, because it was so obnoxious I just found, and I didn’t have a model for this, I found some younger girls to teach the Bible to and I taught the book of Revelation, which don’t recommend as a brand-new believer, as a seventeen-year-old; knew nothing.

I don’t think I knew how to use a commentary, didn’t even know those existed. Just opened my Bible and started from the beginning and thought, “I’m going to teach you girls what this is!” And who knows what I said but we had a ball, they loved God more because of it, and I went on from there to continue discipling girls and to teach the Bible.

Again, no models for this, just I had to talk about it. And it wasn’t going well in my sports teams and friends. So, I was like, I just need to find somebody that wants to learn and wants to know God like I know and love God.

So, that was just me. I was just a zealot. And I have teaching gifts and leadership gifts and I’m a visionary so all these very big gifts, big personality, big passion. And I’m a girl in a very conservative, southern church that was pretty healthy.

CHIP: Yes!

JENNIE: But definitely didn’t see women that had those gifts. So, I didn’t know what to do with those gifts. I certainly would have told you at that age that there probably wasn’t anything else for me to do with those gifts than to just lead a room full of people and teaching the Bible, which was awesome.

And I did for fifteen years. That was really how I spent…

CHIP: Wow.

JENNIE: …the next fifteen years of my life. I always just had a living room full of people, different ages, that I was discipling. And so, you know, but it kept growing and then, you know, that visionary part of me, I would have ideas. I would have really big ideas. I hated how big they were, because I didn’t feel like women were supposed to do certain things and I didn’t know, I was a young mom who didn’t work and felt convicted about that. I didn’t think I could do those things part time. You know, I didn’t have a context of what God was birthing in me.

Not to mention, at the time, Zac was kind of in agreement. We were surviving. He was in ministry, he was in youth ministry, I was supporting him, it was a hard job. We were having kids in our home all the time. And we had young kids that needed to eat and grow up. So, that’s about the time that Holy Ambition came into both of our lives. But we are both visionaries, we are both directional leaders, and we both have a lot of capacity.

And we were in a little bitty town in Cleveland, Texas. And we listened to your radio show. We loved your radio show. And so, you were, in large part, discipling us. And we heard about Holy Ambition in that way. And so, we ordered it, I don’t know how we got it, but again, I remember the box and it was this little thing you popped open with six cassette tapes or so. I don’t…

CHIP: Yeah, you got it!

JENNIE: And so, we were actually starting seminary around that time. And we were driving into town and my husband was at a place where he was like, “Yes, you are teaching a lot. I would love for you to take classes.” We were prioritizing that.

So, we are doing seminary and we are listening to this when we would drive into class. Well, it blew my mind. It blew his mind too. But how it changed my mind was, Wow, I have been terrified of the dreams God has put in me. I have completely boxed in my gifts and how I think I should be using them.

And even the series, the sermon series made me uncomfortable. Holy Ambition. I thought that word was evil…

CHIP: Yes.

JENNIE: …I was scared of it. I didn’t want to, I didn’t want to act like I was a big deal, I didn’t want to seem presumptuous; we’re in this little, bitty Bible church in a little, bitty town. And I was already too much for everybody, so I was so curious, but I was afraid to believe that God could do more with me. Because I was afraid of what that would mean and what that would cost.

I mean, while that sermon series was a turning point for me, all that gave me the permission to do was just obey God. So, to hear what God was leading me to, or to see this is the direction He’s going. And, to submit to my elders and to submit to my husband, right? So, I had these coverings that were protected. But I remember visualizing myself and I thought, When I get to heaven, I’m going to be that thoroughbred that finally got a field. I’m going to be the…

Because I was kind of in a stall. I felt like I was doing the rope thing and walking in a circle. And I was fine and I was like, you know what? I love what I do and I love people and I’ve got people to disciple and I’m just going to do that until Jesus comes or I go home. So, I was fine.

But I always had this feeling that if the gate opened and I ran, I would be happy, I would be full, I would be – oh – and I didn’t even know what that was. I didn’t have some picture, because still at that point, when I’m that age, Beth Moore is not on the scene. She’s just barely, like, starting to publish. There wasn’t a category for what I do now. So, when I talk about Holy Ambition being a turning point for me, it wasn’t like, “And then I jotted down that I would have a podcast and I would speak to thousands of people,” like, I didn’t, those weren’t options or categories.

It was just this sense that I wouldn’t always be holding myself back, that I would be obeying God and running. And that sounds like, obviously, that would be holy, right? Obviously, that would be what God wanted.

But He was preparing me to say yes. And that, I had to get over my own fears, other people’s expectations, and really believe that He had a story for me to live and that I didn’t want to miss it.

CHIP: And so, as you were kind of going through first, it’s okay to be ambitious for God, Holy Ambition. And to dream and do what He wants you to do.

Well, then, there’s kind of the process. First, what - what dislocated your heart? What was it that, like, “This, I either get so mad because it’s not happening or when I think about it, I cry when I think of the need that is unmet.” And you can’t do everything, but it’s just like, “My name is on this. God, if You would let me.” What – tell me how that happened, because to me, that’s how it gets birthed.

JENNIE: Yeah. A hundred percent. And my heart was dislocated the minute I was saved. And that’s why I was so passionate was I wanted people to know Jesus. I saw – hell and heaven felt real to me. The war felt – I could just see it happening everywhere I looked. So, the bondage that I saw women specifically in and still to this day that it haunts me.

I walk into a room to speak, regardless of the size, and there’s a part of me that is going, “I feel the darkness.” Right? Like, I can sense that people are in bondage and stuck. So, I mean, I would use a stronger word than “dislocated”. I was haunted. Like, I was just, I could not escape this burden. And it is burning in my bones.

So, while the positive is like, “I can’t believe I have a Savior like this,” the negative is I’m around people every single day that don’t have that. And so, that, I mean, I’m an evangelist at heart. Like, that is where my heart was dislocated. It was everybody I met after I loved Jesus. It was just – I’m grieved by it.

So, I think what – that was the first thing and it was just something I lived with. And yet, I am strategic. And I am creative. And I’m A.D.D. and I think out of the box. And so, how to reach people and how to bring the gospel to people – it was like technicolor. I had ideas and I had passions and creative ways to do that.

What you did and what the content did was, like, “Hey, take the lid off.” Like, where have you just put a lid on your passions, your gifts, your dreams, your personality? Like, where have you just limited what God could do?

And I remember just going, “Oh, everywhere.” Everywhere! And so, giving ourselves permission to think differently about our gifts and our calling and how we could play parts on the wall of building the kingdom was a huge part of it.

CHIP: I was pastoring for a number of years before it dawned on me, we developed a thing called Primemovers where it’s literally we take high capacity people, get them in a room together, and sort of clear away all the clutter of influence, affluence, all that and say, “Wow, you know, why don’t you minister to one another and identify what that holy ambition is and not just talk about it or intend it or do it later. It can happen in and through your business, in and through your life right now.

And that’s why, you know, we want people to realize you don’t have to be a pastor or speak to thousands of women in – what – a hundred and forty-some countries to have a holy ambition. I mean, my wife’s holy ambition, I mean, she wrote hers out was an investment in our kids and what would happen in their life and through their life.

I think sometimes people get the idea it’s big or famous or a lot. No. It’s your part on the wall, but it’s outside of these invisible expectations that, well, only someone else could do this or do that.

JENNIE: I don’t know if men struggle with this as much as women, but women do tend to go one way or the other, right? And I think that’s what we are talking about here is a tension of obedience to what God has called me to.

CHIP: Yes.

JENNIE: To what is He telling me to do? And so, for me, it would have been disobedient to push away the dreams and the visions that He was building up in me. At the same time, for your wife it would have been disobedient to, like, seek book deals and try to join your radio show. You know what I’m saying?

So I think what people need to hear us say is God’s story and His creativity is unique for each person. And what is ironic is so many people will ask me, like, “I want to be you. Like, what do you, how did you get to do what you do?” And I’m like, first of all I always say, “What do you think I do?” And then the next thing I say is, “Well, I spent fifteen years in a living room making disciples and when I get to heaven, I believe that will be thing that I’m probably most rewarded for.” And the lives that – and I still – I just pulled back together a group of seven. It’s been, like, a year or two that I haven’t been able to have that.

And I’ve kept that throughout my ministry growing. And I know without a doubt that stuff out there that I’m known for, that will probably burn up, right? That I’ve already received reward for. So, even when you’re called to the “big” it’s not about the “big”. And for me, it still is about that living room. And they get my priority. It’s about my office and my team.

And I tell them all the time, I’m like, “Listen, I won’t be held accountable for the million people we reach through this conference. I will be for y’all, and if y’all are growing up in the faith, and if y’all are loving Jesus more because of time with me. So, I think it’s even when it gets big, and yet, I think it’s important and especially now, Chip. Back then, that kind of ambition wasn’t readily even thought of, right?

CHIP: Right.

JENNIE: But now, that is the first thing thought of with the generation coming, growing up on social media is, “I want to have a big influence. I want to have a big platform.” And I think it’ll be really powerful conversation because it’s refining that ambition, right?
I don’t look at my daughters and think they don’t have enough ambition. That’s not – people would have looked at me that way at that age.

CHIP: Yes.

JENNIE: But now I’m looking at them and going, “Let’s turn that ambition into something holy.” And so, I think it’s, yeah, it’s just a lot of tension, which is what it is to follow God, of just holding all those tensions and embracing them.

CHIP: What are some of the challenges as you have now walked through the journey, your world has really changed, and uh.

JENNIE: You know, I think one of the biggest misconceptions about anything that succeeds is that is was up and to the right. You know, that it just, it was just successful and trended up. You know? And I would say, largely, numerically and just, in every way, that is true. On paper, that is true.

Behind the scenes, it has been horrific. And I don’t use that word lightly, because I know people listening know horrific things in their lives. But I remember when we launched IF:Gathering, one of my best friends, she has a massive stroke within a week of that. Like, a week after and can’t speak. And she’s my best friend. That began for me a dumpster fire, of five years. So, those five years were when everything was being born, but everything in our life, it felt like was falling apart. My husband is walking through depression and our family is going through so much hardship, a lot of which I can’t share. My extended family was, it was the darkest season in our lives.

It felt like I had signed something with God and said, “I will do what You called me to do,” and in doing so, we became like the bullseye of attack, right? And it’s that picture of, on the playground, we used to play a game where, it’s a horrible game, where you grab hands and you twist each other’s arms until somebody cried, “Mercy!”

CHIP: Right.

JENNIE: And I remember one night, I remember that’s what I felt. And I cried, “Mercy!” And I was like, “I’m out.” Like, this is too bad, too many people I love that I am this close to are under attack. Like, I’m out. And I don’t remember, like, the answer to that moment, “Well, how did you persevere?” is not clear to me.

I don’t remember, I remember that moment. I don’t remember how I got out of bed the next day, how I didn’t stop the movement of God that was already happening. But I wanted to. And I can say that in those five years, what God did, and I will always thank Him. I remember praying, God, I just want to please You. I don’t care of any of this succeeds if I am not walking with You and my soul is kept by You. And I look at that and I think about that prayer and I’m like, “That’s how He kept my soul.”

And so I thank God for the darkness. And I know that I would have lost my soul. Like, He knows how to persevere us. And no, He does not want to torture the people we love. That is the enemy, right? God hates evil. He doesn’t want evil to win ever.

But in the timing and the difficulty that we were facing, He used it to purify my motives and my heart. And I thank Him for that, because I just know, I am prone to all the horrible things that would happen.

CHIP: If God is going to choose to use you greatly in a broad scope, then He has to deepen you so that when it happens, the roots of your life will be sunk in and it will not be getting caught up in it.

And there’s only one way to go there.

JENNIE: Right.

CHIP: And it’s pain.

JENNIE: It is.

CHIP: It’s a level…

JENNIE: I agree.

CHIP: …of dependency when you trust, when there’s no payoff. In fact, it’s negative, it’s difficult, it’s painful. And it is spiritual warfare and thanks for sharing that. That’s a side of your life not a whole lot of people necessarily will know. And, yet, as people begin to dream and think, it’s not – you know, I’ve had one person say, “Well, if it’s like that, I don’t really want to do that.” And I…

JENNIE: If I knew what is what like, I wouldn’t have ever done it. And I would say, people say sometimes, like, “Would you give it up today?” And I’m like, “Are you kidding?” I’ll give it up before I ever start it! Me quitting is not – is more of a problem than it is something like, “Oh, my identity is in it.”

I’m like, oh no. Like, attached to this calling has been such grief and such difficulty and such pain that it’s more likely to slip through my fingers than for me to grab it too tight. And I love that, because that was my biggest fear. So, God has protected me and I think He honors, you know, Solomon prayed for wisdom and God gave it. When you pray for something that you want, a pure heart, a humble heart, you’ll get it.

CHIP: Yes.

JENNIE: And I think that I – and I don’t regret that, right? So, while when the day comes to close up IF or to retire or to be done, I’ll say, “Yes and amen.” But at the same time, I’m like, gosh, so much fruit has come from it and obedience, it’s His vision and His plan. I’m stewarding this thing, right?

And I’ll stay in because I told Him I would. And He has kept His promise, right? He has kept His promise to purify my heart.

CHIP: I mean, I want people to know: follow your holy ambition. Of course there’s a price tag.

JENNIE: But I would not trade it. Right.

CHIP: Oh, there is exceedingly great reward.

JENNIE: Yeah. It’s good to walk with God. That’s the bottom line. It is good to walk with God. I don’t want to veer off from anything He has for me, because the hardest parts have actually been the richest and the best parts.

CHIP: You remind me, as we think about all of this is it’s basic, somehow, this has gotten to be what superstars do or what really, really committed Christians – Jesus said, “If anyone will follow Me,” anyone, you want to be a follower, “let him deny himself, take up his cross, take up her cross, and follow Me.” Because if you seek to save your life, “I want my way on my terms, my agenda, my way,” you’ll lose it. But if you give up your life, if you can be the seed that goes into the ground and dies, it’ll bear forth much fruit.

Well, I want to wrap it up because I’m thinking I want to make sure everyone hears, this is what we do and this is me asking, so this isn’t you telling. We heard fifteen years teaching in the living room. So, here’s your assignment, are you ready? What is the impact of IF now to the glory of God?

JENNIE: Yeah.

CHIP: Second, how in the world could someone be involved? And what is your heart? What do you long to see happen?

JENNIE: I mean, everything I do is I build tools and experiences to make disciples who make disciples. There is no other goal of my life. “Disciple a Generation” is a thing hanging on my wall. Like, that is what I want to give my life to for the rest of it. And so, and we do that through the local church, and probably your daughters who lead IF:Gatherings, they do that through local churches.

CHIP: Yes, they do.

JENNIE: So we do that. We support, we exist as a ministry to support the local church.

And so, what I love is – it is a group project.

I mean, out there, there are a lot of people like your daughters that have just said, “I will host in my place and I will have, invite my neighbors and friends.” And even our experience, our conference, is still just a tool, right? It’s a tool to help build great conversations around Jesus.

And so, we keep things simple. We cross all denominations. I mean, it’s absolutely wild, this last year, we just had our event in March and uhm, we had over sixty-five hundred people like your daughters that hosted events for us across the world. We reached a hundred and forty-four countries. We don’t know the numbers of how many people were in those, but then, hundreds of thousands of people watching individually too.

So, it’s pretty unbelievable, but what I love is that it’s not me, it’s not even our team, even though there are twenty of us in this office that give our lives to these tools and experiences. It is all of those women out there that have said, “Yes.” And they do the brave thing. We always say it, “They are the heroes of this ministry,” because they brave inviting their friends and their neighbors.

And so, anyway, it’s so fun. I love working with women, because they do get after it and make things happen. And it has just been such a fun, fun journey. So, ifgathering.com is the place and then other tools are at jennieallen.com. I-F, gathering.com. Jennie, J-E-N-N-I-E, Allen, A-L-L-E-N, .com. And all my tools and resources are in those two places and, yeah, it’s, it is an adventure. And we love women to come of all ages that come alongside of us. We had fourteen hundred college students host this year.

CHIP: Oh, that’s awesome.

JENNIE: But then we also have women in their eighties that are IF:Local leaders. So, this is so fun because it does cross so many barriers and brings women together.

CHIP: Well, Jennie, thank you for taking the time and sharing your story. For people that want to find out, what is Holy Ambition? It’s a book. And part of this conversation, I’m so grateful is, you know, I wrote that book twenty years ago.

And to be able to update for people to see the stories of people like yourself just brings me great joy.

Jennie, what a blast. So good to be with you.

JENNIE: Oh, you too, Chip. Thank you!