Sex, Sexuality, and Gender: Tough Questions, Practical Answers, Part 2

CHIP: Well, someone walks up to you after a service and says, “My niece is getting married. I have a really close relationship with her. I've always been that special aunt. I love her so very, very much. Here's the question. Should I attend the wedding?” In other words, should you attend the wedding of a gay couple? How do you answer that?

TIM: Yeah, I think again, I would say this is a gray area. Some people would say it's black and white. And I recognize this. And as you said, I think we’ve got to be clear what we're talking about in these differences are between Christians who hold to a biblical Christian sexual ethic.

CHIP: Yes.

TIM: We're not talking about people that hold a different ethic. Within that, I think you have to address it like any gray area. One, is the Bible absolutely clear on this issue? Where it's clear, you can't waver. But if it hasn't addressed it directly and I've not seen those Scriptures that tell you about attending weddings or not, I think you have to step back and look at passages like Romans 14 through 16. What does the Bible say about gray areas? You know, back in that time there were many in the Church that said if you ate meat, you're endorsing idolatry. There's no way around it. And Paul had to address it and said, “Well, people have different conscience on this.” And in the same way I step back from it and I go, okay, somebody attending doesn't necessarily mean they endorse it. This may be just be a secular ceremony and they're not even seeing this as a covenant. That might frame it in a way that I could go, “Well, if they're not doing this before God, I can still keep that relationship.” The hard ones are the ones that do see this as a Christian wedding. They're asking you to come endorse it as a Christian wedding. I, as a pastor, don't feel like I can go to that wedding.

CHIP: Yes.

TIM: I certainly can't, do that ceremony because it's a covenant before God. But I do know others, and Bruce Miller is a pastor I really respect and Bruce has written a lot about parents in particular who feel like they are the only bridge into this child's life and that this will forever burn that bridge. And as they prayed about it before God, you know, you're balancing the two things, how do I love my child well and be salt and light in their life while, at the same time, how do I stand for truth? And some, before God, felt like their conscience told them, Holy Spirit told them: I need to go to the wedding. Others said, “No I can't. It violates my conscience to do that.” And so that'd be that other part that I don't think we're always comfortable with in these conversations. God actually says he's given us a Holy Spirit. He didn't write it laws on a tablet anymore, He's writing it on our hearts. And so are we bringing God's Word and what the Spirit says through His word to bear when we pray through and talk through these issues? And so, I know that's not that clear-cut but I do feel like it does provide some direction on it.

CHIP: Yeah, and I think there's just, if you would say there's tension, maybe one pull is even showing up, right? Is a tacit endorsement that I believe this is okay, whether you've spoken to them privately and told them this or told them that. And so for those who feel like: if I show up, everyone knows where I'm coming from. I'm endorsing something that I really believe is wrong. And then the flip side is the whole relationship of, what do I do in this relationship if my behavior means that we will never communicate ever again? And so, I think it's that tension. So there's danger on both sides.

TIM: And I think that's why it's really important, though, to clarify your goal. If your goal is not to make waves you're doing it for the wrong reason. You're going to the wedding for the wrong reason. If your goal is really the Gospel – Paul always said that, he said, “I would sacrifice my life in any way for the sake of the Gospel,” – if my goal is I'm only doing this for the sake of the Gospel then I go, “Okay, there may be a place where God’s called you to be that salt and light in the presence.” But if we're just doing it because I don't want to cause tension in the family, I would go, “That's not a good reason to go to a wedding.”

CHIP: Well that leads to one that gets sticky, especially in the workplace and school and, you know, should you use personal pronouns for transitioning people?

TIM: Yeah, I think this one's hard because there's really is a divide within the Christian community over this. I think for those like Rosario Butterfield and others who are really speaking to what it's doing to culture because when you change language you change your culture and they recognize that. And so they would say anytime you use that, you're lying. You're lying about the person and it has devastating effects to the culture. And I lean that way as I see where the culture is going with it. The one caveat I'd give when I hear from Preston Sprinkle and others who are in a therapeutic setting and they're dealing with people who truly have gender dysphoria, which is actually a small number.

CHIP: Yes.

TIM: We've got this social contagion that's been spread that so many people that really don't have it. But for those who truly have it, Sprinkle and others have said sometimes showing them the respect in this – and these are people who are trying to live a biblical ethic, they're not engaging in the lifestyle, but that dysphoria, that mental condition gets so triggered by it – they said sometimes giving them the respect of that helps with it. I'm not dealing with that but I don't want to just write it off because I'm not dealing with it. I would say for those where we see it out here in Silicon Valley the most is in the workplace. And so you have Christians who, you know, they're under an HR department that if they don't, you know, engage and identify as they've been told, they lose their job immediately. I would say to them I look biblically to people like Daniel, I look to Esther, people who were put in very immoral situations. And as I look at their story, they did not make changing the morality of the workplace of the court of where they were their number one issue. God had called them for a time such as this to serve in that place. And when they had the opportunity, they were able to be salt and light. And so, I look at Christians that I go: I don't think God's calling you to go in tomorrow and you have to sacrifice your job because He may have you in that context as salt and light. Now, if you're pushed on your individual beliefs, always stand for it. But you don't have to broadcast that belief or suddenly go against everything in a company and that's the only way to be salt and light in that company. I think there's other models in Scripture that show us how to do that.

I, for my part, I'm pronoun avoidant. I would repeat their name in the place of the pronoun as, one, this is a bridge of respect. I'm willing to take this name but I have a hard time immediately switching to this new pronoun because I think at that point now I am really acknowledging something that I don't believe to be true in that. And so that's personally how I would deal. And then if they ask why are you doing that because sometimes it becomes obvious,

CHIP: Sure.

TIM: I would have to just tell them I don't think that gender and sexuality are fluid. I think God knew what He was doing when He designed you and He thought it was perfect and I don't want you to miss out on His best for you.

CHIP: The final question is, you know, people ask from the church, “Should I allow a gay couple to stay in my house overnight?” And I thought you dealt with that one really wisely as well. What did you share in terms of the answer to that one?

TIM: Yeah, I would just say be consistent in your standard and so if your standard is, “Hey, we represent in this home a biblical sexual ethic and so we don't believe it's best for you to stay in our home at least in the same bedroom, you know, there's separate bedrooms.” The only caveat I would say to people: do you apply that to your heterosexual friends and children? When they're coming home with girlfriends and that because if we're going to hold a standard let's hold the standard. The flip side of it I'd say as well, if you've got young children in the home, they're being molded by your behavior. Not just what they hear at church. They're being molded. And so I know families that they have had a sibling or aunt, uncle who's gay and they never talk about it because they don't want to ever deal with it, and the kids grow up and embrace that, oh man, this must be an acceptable lifestyle. And the kids are actually surprised because when the parents say, “Well, no, that that's not acceptable,” they say, “Well, you never said anything about it. I mean, we always saw that modeled.” So I really think it's important to have conversations at appropriate ages with kids to say, “Hey, we love, you know, uncle so-and-so. We love your aunt but you need to realize we disagree with their lifestyle and here's why here's what the Bible says about it and so want to make sure that you're really clear on what we believe about their relationship.”

CHIP: What I see happening over and over and you know, a lot of my background was in psychology, I – when I see the fallout, when I see what happens to relationships, when you look at the issues that happen, whether it's heterosexual or homosexual, when we break God's standards that are meant for our wellness so we can flourish, it always brings pain. We always reap what we sow. And there's part of me that's like, if you really care, I mean, if you really care about the outcomes of people, you can't be silent, but you can't be a jerk either.

TIM: Yeah and the part of it, you know, we're seeing Romans 1 play out. It's this unraveling of society. The good that comes out of that though is even the secular culture, even people who don't know Jesus, they look at it and go “This is crazy. This can't be true.” We had people who were unbelievers who came to this series and I was a little nervous about it because I thought they'd be against it. But over and over here's what I heard from them. “Well, I don’t agree with your Christianity per se, but at least you're providing answers on these issues and we have nowhere else to go to get reasonable answers.” And so it actually becomes a doorway to the Gospel and so we shouldn't be shy about just speaking truth. There's a clarity that comes with it.

CHIP: Well, this next one, I remember sitting in church and listening to this and my jaw dropped. You know, when you talk about sexuality, it's always transgender or homosexuality, or maybe it's adultery or, you know, unbiblical divorces or living together. Rarely have I heard anyone ask and answer this question: what does the Bible say about pornography? And your answer was like a wakeup call. And I kind of read, it's not like I'm in the dark. I had no idea honestly at the level of impact and some of the things you shared. So can we take a minute and let's listen to this audio clip and then I really want to ask you some questions as a follow-up to that.

TIM (Audio Clip): Pornography falls under the prohibitions against sexual immorality and lust. Hear me, pornography is always wrong. Jesus said, "You've heard it said you shall not commit adultery. I say to everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." It's always wrong. On top of that, I would just say to you, it's one of the most destructive forces in the world today. It literally is one of the most destructive forces in the world today. It is so widespread. It's so widespread through culture and it's so widespread through the evangelical church. So even as we dive into this, I know the uncomfort level goes up, the struggle is real here. It's here, it's inundated with us. It's coming at us every day. It's accessible in a way like never before. And it has the illusion that it remains anonymous. And it is so destructive. And when I say destructive, I'm not just talking morally. This verse always strikes me, Paul says, "Run from sexual immorality, flee from it."

Every other sin a person commits outside the body, but sexually immoral person sins against his own body. You're literally damaging your own body. And this proves true with pornography like few other categories. Pornography is a drug, it's just a drug. There's no other way around it. And it has the same impact on your brain as other drugs. They call it the Coolidge effect, that basically when a person sees porn, that rush of dopamine, those pleasure neurochemicals that just rush the brain like drugs do. And so then the brain has to respond to it, one, because it's too much of a rush of those neurochemicals, the receptors, they shut down part of the receptors, and in the same way, you don't always get the same production from the exact same stimulus. When someone starts doing a drug in order to get the same high because the brain's trying to protect itself, they have to do stronger drugs to get that same high again. Same thing happens with porn.

Then in the regular parts of life you have a dopamine withdrawal, and so you're down that much more and life's that less pleasurable. And then the only way to get that fix again is, well, I got to go back to my drug. And the cycle continues. And the hard part is there's so much shame around it, man, we don't know where to talk. We don't know how to get help. It's so destructive to a marriage. And I see this in counseling, the level of hurt and often the spouse who feels, "Man, was I not enough?" And here's what's hard because there's a hurt in the sexual area, but the hurt really even goes deeper in the deception, that you were lying to me, that you hid this from me in your isolation and it's a double whammy. Now, I get asked, one of the questions that comes in and is pornography grounds for divorce?

And I would say the instance and the act of someone looking at pornography, I don't think it's crossed that line that Jesus is saying when he's talking about the breaking of one flesh, where two bodies have been joined, but I think it opens the door. And here's what I mean in it. I've seen couples that if a partner is not willing to deal with it, it becomes a form of abandonment. And so they've abandoned this marriage in it, they're not living out what Corinthians calls them to out of it. And so I address it more as a form of abandonment if they're not willing to deal with it, that can lead to divorce. Certainly can lead to separation for a time in that, for them to take seriously this.

And I don't say that lightly and divorce is not something I'd ever push lightly, but I've also seen spouses trapped for years and years and years of a spouse who's not changing at all and not dealing with it and almost as a church, you hold over them, well, until they actually sleep with a person you can't. And I go, no, we got to jump in and deal with it. Now, hear me. Here's what you need to know. We got people all through this church that have had serious issues with it, serious issues in their marriage, thought they couldn't come back from it, addicted to it, and Jesus Christ has absolutely redeemed. But you need to know this, if you're addicted or even struggling, you're not going to overcome it alone.

I don't care how much you go home and tell yourself and you pray that much harder, "Okay, Jesus, this is the last time." You're not going to get out from under it and scripture tells you this. This is one of those that says, "Brothers, if anyone's caught in any transgressions, you who are spiritual should restore them in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens." This word burden, it's talking about a load that is so big, so crushing it would crush. It's like being under a boulder. You can't get out from under it. Porn is a burden. And if you're under it, I don't care how much you're praying and your intent in it, you need help. And you weren't designed to get out from under it alone. You need someone to come along and help bear that burden.

CHIP: Tim, as I heard the very last thing you said and having been a pastor here for close to four decades now, what we know is percentage-wise, there's a huge portion of listeners right now that are saying, “You're talking about me.” So what kind of feedback did you get? And are there any best practices? I'm a pastor listening or a parent. Is there any real hope? How have you addressed this and seen God work?

TIM: Yeah, I would say for those who are listening who right now you're feeling the shame of it. There is hope. God heals, God breaks the strongholds of Satan and you can't fall for the two lies he has. One lie is “I'll never get under that burden.” The other is you're under the burden and you say, “I'll never get out,” and you can. Christ has the strength in both cases but you're going to need to get some help. In our church, we've got some programs, we have one called Warrior Men and it's a very strong program, but grace filled but very accountable. And I have more guys in the church, I love it when they walk up and they just thank me and I'm not running the program, I'm not there, but they thank me because they go, “I never knew my marriage could be this way.

I never knew life could be… It feels like the air I breathe is clean again.” It just, it lifts that burden off of them just like Scripture talks about. And then we also have Journey Women that help the wives, but also help women that are involved in it as well. Those are two of the programs. There's many great ones out there. I would encourage any church if you're not providing some resource like this, you're failing to really allow your people to get out from under these burdens. They'll never do it alone. That was the other thing I would just challenge anyone, you will never do this alone. Satan wants you alone because when you're alone you're vulnerable. When you come into the light, you know, as John says, “As we walk in the light as He is in the light then we have that that fellowship, not only with God but with each other,” and I think those verses apply to this topic more than anything else. You just need to step into the light so you can experience both that relationship with God but also community with others.

CHIP: And it takes such courage and I just, you know, you and I have scores and scores of stories of watching people take those first steps. And, yes, it's hard and it's, there's shock and pain and hurt, but there really is, there really is hope. You know, there is no way to grow spiritually, authentically and have this secret. You know, and juggling sort of this compartmentalized life and the guilt that that produces health issues, marriage issues, just all kind of things and it is just one of those where I'm so glad you address this, Tim, because it's a huge problem and we've got to address it openly and, as a church, we can't call people to, “This is how you need to live,” knowing up to half of the men in our churches and a third of pastors are in this struggle. And just to sort of gloss over that and say, “Oh, well, why don't we talk more about transgender or homosexuality or adultery, right?” And we've got to be honest and forthright about all these things. Well, Tim, thank you for spending this time with us. Thanks for letting us sort of eavesdrop on the life of a pastor in the midst of an ultra-progressive community that is saying, “We love our community. We understand nine out of ten people would not agree with a biblical view of life or truth.” And yet, when you love people and when you live out the truth, and not just in these areas of sexuality, but you know, I see what you do for the poor. I see what the church is doing in coming together and remodeling schools and beautiful days in parks and helping refugees. You know, I think that's shining your light before men that they might glorify their Father in heaven.

TIM: And I would encourage all of your listeners, we don't have to be afraid. I know the culture is changing so fast and it scares us. But all of these books of the Bible were written in times and cities that were so much more countercultural than now.

CHIP: Yes.

TIM: And look what God did. He took that band of followers and it's changed the world. So we don't have to be afraid, that the truth still the truth. God is still on His throne and He can use us in this culture beyond our expectation because it was all based on Him to begin with.

CHIP: Well, I feel prompted as we close, Father, You know where every person is listening to this broadcast right now. And You know where some are stuck, where some are addicted, where some are worried, where some that just confused and don't know what to do. Almighty God, thank You that Your grace is available. You say in Psalm 86, O Lord, You are so good. You are so kind. You are so ready to forgive all those who call upon You for help. Lord, my heart's desire, and I know it's Yours, would You speak to the minds and the hearts of those listening right now with whatever they're carrying, whatever the burden, whatever the load, whatever the boulder, could they just pause and get some time to get away and get alone, I mean, soon with You and just cry out for help and then listen quietly, and know that You’re going to respond? Thank You for this time with Tim. Thank You that there's great churches all across America. Lord, would You help us to love people well and to live the truth in Jesus' name, amen.