Does the Bible Affirm Same-Sex Relationships?, Part 2

CHIP: Could you take a minute and, speak a little bit about the goodness of God? As I talk with people, somehow prohibitions have turned into, “God's trying to keep that which is best from me. You know, if God really cared and I have these feelings and these desires…” and by the way, whether they're heterosexual desires that lead to pornography or affairs or hooking up or whether they're homosexual desires. I mean, you have this, why is God kind of like such a “prude”? Speak to the goodness of God and the plan of God and the beauty of the gospel as it relates to when God sets boundaries. I think people miss that.

REBECCA: Yeah, I mean, there's so many things to say there. My friend Rachel Gilson, who wrote a brilliant book called Born Again This Way: Coming Out, Coming to Faith, and What Comes Next, if people are interested to check that out. One of the things that she points out is that if you go back to Genesis 3 to the Garden of Eden and you put yourself in Eve's position, Eve on the one hand is looking at this fruit and it's desirable to eat and it looks like it's going to give her knowledge and Satan's telling her, you know, “God is actually trying to hold out on you. Like he's trying to keep something good from you,” and all the information of her senses is telling her, You should go ahead and eat this fruit. And all she has on the other side is God's Word. And God's Word is saying, If you eat this fruit, you're gonna die.

And actually that is the position that you and I find ourselves in frequently when we are tempted towards sin. It looks so good. Like as far as we can tell, it looks like it would make us happy. And so we are so inclined to say, “Do you know what? I'm not gonna trust God's Word. I'm going to trust the information of my own eyes.” And ultimately that is a failure to recognize who God is. But the reality is, if we do submit ourselves to Christ, even in the most, sort of, tender and vulnerable areas of our life, which if we're honest, for all of us, this is an area of great tenderness and vulnerability, our sexual attractions, is it does feel in some ways like it cuts to the core of us, we will start to recognize the truth of one of Jesus’ radical claims, which is that anyone who tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. We will actually start to find that the Jesus who calls us to deny ourselves and take up our cross and follow Him is also the Jesus who has more love for us than any other human being could have.

And so we are profoundly foolish if we fall for the lie which says if you walk away from Jesus into the arms of a lover who God has put outside of the scope of possibility for you that you're actually walking toward love rather than away from it. There's no one else who's died for me. There's no one else who knows the absolute worst of my heart and yet loves me still. I mean, honestly, if even the people who love me most saw a kind of bubble above my head with all my thoughts kind of going through it, I would, all my relationships would be ruined. But Jesus is the one who does see that of you and of me and He is still the one who loves us all the way to hell and back again.

CHIP: I think you stated wisely these really are issues of the heart. And we've bought instead of all the things that come out of our heart is what condemn us, we're being told each and every day: just follow your heart. If you feel this, how could it be wrong? And maybe that's the biggest lie of our culture right now.

I just have to tell you, in all of your writings and just as we talk, you keep bringing us back to Jesus. And I think what happens in the culture and inside the Christian culture, it keeps getting back to my needs, my desires, my feelings, what about me? And the Bible is some sort of a rule book keeping me from the best. And the best, the ultimate, it’s we are made to have relationship with Jesus, that we can be loved and forgiven and valued and restored and that our identity comes from there and our joy comes from there and all these other relationships, yeah, they have their place and they're important, but none of them can satisfy.

And, you know, I think of uh – a young man who came and after the service said, “Hey, I really love the church. it's very warm and it's caring and I hear God's Word and I really would like to be a part, but I don't know if I'm welcome here.” And I pretty much knew what he meant and he shared his story. And I said, “Of course you're welcome here. Are you asking, am I welcome here to be a follower of Jesus like the adulterers and liars and fornicators that are here? You know? And you've told me about your homosexual lifestyle, If you're asking, can I come here and never want to change, never repent, well, you can certainly come here, but all of us who are dealing with our sin are on the same journey, and Jesus is the answer, and His commandments are for our good. And so just why don't you come and join in the life of our church and get to know Jesus and then determine from Him what kind of lifestyle is going to be the most fruitful and best and what the truth is.” And I think that's what I hear you doing is helping people come to Jesus first versus here's all the hoops you need to jump through.

REBECCA: Yeah, and I think Jesus, any of us and all of us who come to Jesus are called to repent and to believe.

CHIP: Yes.

REBECCA: And those are two things that they go hand in hand. And any of us who come to Jesus thinking, Well, there's one area of my life that I'm not gonna let Jesus be Lord of. it could be your checkbook, it could be your relationships with your children, it could be your sexual relationships. If there's an area of our life where we're saying, Do you know what? Anything else You can have Lord, but like not this. We're actually not recognizing Him as Lord, we're not believing that He is the One who made us and has, uniquely has the right to tell us how to live our lives because He's the One who gave us life in the first place and will draw us into resurrection life with Him forever if we all put our trust in Him. But repentance is a gift in that context. We're not being robbed of anything when we repent. We're actually being given something.

And again, I love how my friend Rachel Gilson puts it: when Jesus describes the kingdom of heaven as being like a man who found a treasure hidden in a field. And when he found it, in his joy, he sold everything he had to buy that field. And she points out that it's actually, it's not with kind of resentment and reluctance that we, if we recognize who Jesus really is, that we are willing to give anything up for Him. It's actually that in our joy, we're ready to give everything up in order to have the treasure that He is. And no human relationship is ever gonna be able to actually compare to that.

CHIP: I want to just touch on one or two more before we wrap up our time. And this is one that I think has created more confusion possibly than anything, at least in my personal experience, is the idea that if I have a same-sex attraction - I must be gay. And I'll never forget as we were kind of teaching through a number of issues and sharing things, a man saw the notes and he said, “Hey, I really need your help.” And he introduced me to his two children and one was twelve and the other was ten. And he goes, “Both my kids are gay.” And I said, “What do you mean?” “Well, they told me. They both, you know, they're both gay.” And I remember saying to him, “Your kids look very young. Are you telling me that they are both involved in sexual relationships with people of the same sex?” And he goes, “Oh, no, no, they're just, they're just gay.” I said, “No, no. So you're telling me they've communicated they have a same sex attraction.” And he said, “Yeah.” I said, “Well, you understand there's, in that whole journey through puberty, there's lots of people that have same sex attractions along the way. And that may mean they're going through some very normal things, or it may mean something that stays for a long period of time, but it certainly doesn't indicate that they're necessarily gay.” How do you help people make that distinction between a same-sex attraction versus, “I am gay,” sort of that issue of identity, and how do you help people think through that?

REBECCA: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting even aside from a biblical perspective. There's a woman called Lisa Diamond, who's a professor at University of Utah and not at all coming from a Christian perspective. She's in a same-sex relationship herself. But her research has shown that about fourteen percent of women and about seven percent of men experience some degree of same-sex attraction and that only one percent of women and two percent of men are exclusively attracted to their same sex there's quite a lot of change over the course of people's lives in any and all direction. I mean, these statistics don't really make either kind of conservatives or liberals happy because, you know, the person, if you hear of someone who, maybe the thirty-five-year-old woman who left her husband for another woman, doesn't necessarily mean she was always attracted to women. It may mean that she just sort of at this point in her life has fallen in love with another woman, or conversely, people who have identified as gay and been in same-sex relationships who've then ended up married to somebody of the opposite sex.

There's a lot of kind of slippage in both directions. And I think that that helps us to see that actually who we're attracted to is in some ways beside the point. Because all of us, if we're Christians, are going to be called at various times in our lives to say no to our sexual or romantic feelings. All of us are called at most to one sexual partner, the person that we're married to. And the chances are for the large majority of us, there will be times in our lives where somebody outside of our marriage or somebody if we're a single person someone we're not married to, we feel that draw.

And the question is always going to be, what do we do with that? Are we going to trust Jesus or are we not? And so, I think it's really helpful for us to create church communities where, you know, kids as they grow up feel able to talk to their parents, their youth group leaders, their friends about what they're feeling. Not because they need to be sort of affirmed in the goodness of those feelings, but just like any other area of sin or temptation that they need to get their sort of help and support of their community.

And so, I think there's a, you know, there’s a positive to the fact that often these conversations are happening more today than they were maybe twenty-five or certainly fifty years ago. But it's really important how we have those conversations.

CHIP: Yes. Yes.

REBECCA: I want my kids to know that it will be no surprise to me if they come to me at some point and say, “Do you know what? I'm finding myself attracted to other girls at school or other boys or whatever it is, that I won't be surprised or sort of shocked or appalled by that in any way, but that I will come alongside them and seek to love and encourage them just as I will do if they say to me, “Do you know what? I'm really struggling with attraction towards somebody of the opposite sex. And I feel like I'm kind of at risk of stepping into some major kind of sexual sin here.” I'll be honored if they want to those conversations with me. So I think we need to create greater openness for all of our sakes, not because we want to affirm sin, but actually because all of us need help in fighting against sin and temptation.

CHIP: Good word. And I think too, helping people understand that we all have feelings, right? But that's not our identity.

REBECCA: Yeah.

CHIP: And if I believe that's who I am, then all the arguments and all the logic sort of goes out the window because I can't change that either. That's how God made me or I'm a mistake and this is who I am. And I think making a differentiation between having an attraction that you're tempted by, whether it's heterosexual in ways that are very unhealthy or dangerous or sinful, or homosexual, those are attractions, those are feelings, those are real. And having a safe place where you can bring those out into the open and talk about them is an important thing.

Could you take a minute and, speak a little bit about we just got it wrong. We were really wrong about slavery, And maybe it's been two thousand years and you had a lot of arguments, but the same is true about homosexuality. We're just enlightened now. We understand more. We have psychology. We grasp how the brain works and this is just a normal, different expression of a person's life and sexuality. So how do you defend, if you got the Bible that wrong on slavery, that you're not wrong on this as well?

REBECCA: Yeah, I think this is what's sometimes called the sort of trajectory argument where people say, “You know, we see a trajectory from the Old Testament to the New Testament on slavery, which doesn't quite get us as far as abolishing slavery, but like points us in that direction. And likewise, we see a trajectory from the Old to the New Testament on same-sex sexual relationships. It doesn't quite get us to same-sex marriage, but like points us in that direction.”

You know, I think that's a very common argument people make and actually, many of the people today who were advocating for same-sex marriage for Christians are saying, “Look, you know, I know the Bible says a clear no to this. Like, know that I'm not trying to tell you that Paul doesn't mean what he seems to mean. But what I'm telling you is, like Paul was wrong on slavery and so you can be wrong on this as well.”

Now, I think the problem with that is if you look more closely at what the Bible says about slavery, what you find is actually that the New Testament is radically undermining the institution of slavery as practiced in the ancient world to where Paul declares that in Christ there is neither slave nor free, to where Jesus says anyone who wants to be sort of great in His kingdom must actually be slave of all and explains why. He says, “Because even He, the Son of Man, didn't come to be served but to serve and to give His life as a ransom for many.” Jesus actually takes onto Himself the identity of a slave in His life, in His teachings, and even in His death. Crucifixion was a death very much associated with slaves. And the teaching that came out of Jesus and out of the apostles was one that was extraordinarily radically egalitarian when it came to people’s status, and that actually erased the distinction between enslaved people and free people in the ancient world.

I love, sorry to kind of go off but Paul's letter to Philemon is one of my favorite letters in the New Testament where Paul is returning Onesimus, who was a bond servant of, or a slave of Philemon's, to him. And in the cultural expectations of the day, Onesimus could have been severely punished by Philemon for running away. But actually Paul is sending him back and he says no longer as a slave, but as a beloved brother. And in fact, he tells Philemon that he must receive Onesimus back as if he was receiving Paul himself. So receiving back this sort of runaway slave as if he were Philemon's most respected mentor. So we see in the, not only in what Paul's sort of teaching at a theological level, but even what he's teaching at a very kind of nuts and bolts, like practical level, we see the explosion of the institution of slavery.

So then what about the trajectory, so to speak, when it comes to same-sex sexual relationships? Well, as we've mentioned, they're clearly condemned in the Old Testament. The New Testament, rather than kind of loosening that up, actually doubles down on it. There are more New Testament verses condemning same-sex sexual relationships than there are Old Testament verses. And there's a specific application of it to female/female relationships as well as male/male relationships.

And so the idea that there is a sort of trajectory towards same-sex marriage is actually indefensible from the Scriptures. So I think, I think this is in some ways the most powerful argument on the side of affirming same-sex marriage because it actually takes the longest. You have to look most closely at the text to see, you know, is it true that the Bible is really affirming slavery as well as saying no to same-sex sexual relationships? And actually, I don't think it is true. But it's worth doing that research and looking into it.

CHIP: Well, I would say, one of the places where they can do the research is your book. It really is excellent, Rebecca. And you spend a chapter on that and you use few words to say many important things, which I think is a real gift. And uh I don’t recommend a whole lot of books lightly at all. This has been a huge help to me personally.

And what I love is you don't pull out portions of other people's research that are contrary to what you believe or what the Scripture teaches in ways that are unfair and limited. I really, that makes me crazy when I see things taken out of context to support “biblical” views and don't treat people and their perspective and their presuppositions fairly. That is just completely wrong. And you don't do that. You don't do that at all. In fact, if anything, I feel like you really push the envelope to say, “What does this person really mean? Why would they think that? And what's the basis of it?” And respect that.

And now let's go from there. So that's been really, really helpful. And I think we need you in the body of Christ. And I'm sure that's why the Lord is using these books, and just as we close, there's a, you know, a fourteen-year-old girl or a nineteen-year-old boy who is living in a whole different world than certainly I grew up in and even that you grew up in who has feelings and attractions and really wonders where is Jesus in all of this and who am I? Any closing words from someone who's experienced a same-sex attraction and has been on a journey a little bit longer than them?

REBECCA: Yeah, I mean, I number one, I'd say you are not alone. And I know it's really easy to feel alone sometimes, especially if you're in a church context where it's really hard to talk about these things. If there are a hundred people in your church, for example, then there are probably ten people who one way or another at times in their life have experienced same-sex attraction. So you're not alone. This is not the one thing that can't be talked about.

And I would encourage you to find a couple of Christian friends who you can talk to and look for Christian friends who will love you enough to listen to you and understand what you're saying and how you're feeling and to point you to the truth of Jesus. Because there's a big mistake that Christians who may not struggle in this area can make and that's to think, You know, I love my friend so much I can't possibly believe that what's coming out of her heart or his heart is actually wrong. And so maybe the most loving thing I can do is to say, “Well, perhaps the Bible doesn't really say that it's not okay to pursue a same-sex romantic relationship.”

Actually, that's profoundly unloving because when we do that, we are undermining somebody's confidence in God's Word. What I need from my close Christian friends and what all of us need from our close Christian friends is people who will listen to us, love us, warts and all, and who will say to us, “Jesus loves you, you can trust Him, I'm going to help you through this.”

We don't need people who point us away from the Lord. We need people who will help strengthen our knees and give us the help that we need when Satan's lies seem really tempting and when the fruit looks really good and all we have on the other side is God's Word saying that if you do this, you will die. We need Christian friends to stand on the side of God's word and say a little bit like Jesus, “I love you and I want the best for you and I'm going to help you to trust the Lord in this scenario.”

CHIP: And I think that's a really important word for them and for their parents who don't want to feel rejected and for grandparents who hear something and now what do I do? I just want to affirm speaking the truth kindly, lovingly after listening well. Agreeing with them so that you “keep the relationship” is a long-term plan to really pull people away from God's truth, and that produces, talk about slavery and bondage in the long haul. So, The book is called Does the Bible Affirm Same-Sex Relationships? Examining 10 Claims About Scripture and Sexuality. Rebecca, thank you so much. I know you got a lot on your plate and you've already had a busy day, so thanks for being with us today. We really appreciate it.

REBECCA: Thanks so much for having me, Chip.