Sex, Sexuality, and Gender: Tough Questions, Practical Answers, Part 1

CHIP: I am super excited about this program. And Tim, thanks for being with us. It's great to have you.

TIM: Well, it's a privilege to be here and be a part.

CHIP: Well, we have covered some heavy-duty things this month. We've talked about an entire series about caring enough to confront. Bringing Light, Not Heat, to today's kind of pivotal and controversial issues. and, you know, we've played, your message on sexuality, transgender, LGBTQ. What was the motivation and desire in kind of jumping into these heavy duty issues?

TIM: Yeah, it really wasn't a desire to be controversial. It was pastoral. Just we had too many families; they're asking these questions. And also, you know, as a parent with teenagers still in the home, I'm looking at this next generation who are bombarded with false teaching on all of these issues. And if the Church is not willing to step up and just teach the truth in a straightforward manner, we shouldn't be shocked if our kids embrace a different ideology if we're not willing to teach them the truth. So it really was driven out of a desire to shepherd families and a desire to really reach our next generation and at least make a case for truth for them.

CHIP: I have the unique privilege of having been the senior pastor of Venture Christian Church. And then you and I working on staff together for a pretty good season. And then a little five and a half years ago, you came and became the senior pastor. And because you were so gracious, I actually attend the church. So I get to hear you and you're my pastor. And as I listened to you teach this series. Theresa and I were sitting there and I just told her, I said, “Honey, I can teach on these things but Tim is handling this so well, but he's in the thick of it.” and I really want to thank you for what you've done and that balance of being tender and kind and truthful. And so, you know, the way that we're going to do this. Let's play the first question that was a pretty tough one that is happening all across America and around the world is what do you say to a parent when their child comes out and says, “I identify now as LGBTQ”? And here's a quick audio clip of how you address that for the people at Venture Christian Church

TIM (Audio Clip): I would just say first of all, listen, listen, listen. Be quick to hear and slow to speak. Just listen to them. Listen to what they're thinking. Listen to their story. Just create a place where they can be heard. Doesn't mean you agree, but you hear them. The second thing I'd say is this, express your love and your support as God's grace bearer and truth teller in their life. Every parent, you are a grace bearer and you're a truth teller. That's fundamental to your role. You're establishing a culture in your home of does grace mark this place? And am I bringing that grace? Well, at the same time, do we align our lives to truth? And that's the tension you feel in that moment of, okay, I want to speak the truth immediately. Here's what I'd encourage you lead with grace, because that's what God does. God always leads with grace. He never undercuts truth. He never shies away from truth, but he's always quick to lead with grace.

As you do this, recognize there's going to be a tension between how you each define your identity and your belief. So here's the hard part. If you as a Christian, you go, "Hey, Tim, I agree with every sermon you've said. I agree with the Bible says, I'm basing my stand off of this." And then they come forward in this. You're at a tension point with your child, and this is what makes it so hard in parenting. Now, for them especially, here's how the culture defines it. The culture is said, "Hey, if you have this attraction, if you have this desire, this is who you are." Their identity is built off of it. This is why, by the way, often the church over the years has said, hate the sin, love the sinner. You know what they hear when you say that? Hate the sinner because they're not identifying their behavior as sin. They're identifying their behavior as their identity. I am gay. This is who I am. Now, you probably don't identify yourself as that way. That's probably not your governing thought when you said, oh, if I said, "Hey, tell me a little bit about yourself," probably the first thing you don't say is, "Well, I'm heterosexual."

And this is where the tension often comes is unless you accept this, unless you agree with this, we can't have relationship. Now, can I say that's a two-way street by the way though, because as well, we are people who our identity is based on Jesus Christ, and it's based on what God's word says about us. And so in the same way that someone says, hey, unless you agree with this, we could make the same claim and say, well, unless you agree with the Bible, you can't accept me because my whole identity is based on the Bible and you don't accept the Bible. See, here's the clash you're going to have to decide together, can we love each other and even accept each other without agreeing with each other? And the reason this is so hard today is our culture is determined that you can't do this unless you agree. On everything by the way, unless you agree about COVID, unless you agree about politics. Unless you agree, we can't have relationship. That's the teaching of the culture. By the way, that's the last point in Romans one when a culture breaks down. That you treat each other this way. And so at a fundamental place, what you've got to determine as a family is we're going to have this fundamental disagreement. You define life this way.

We're defining it based on what we see Scripture teaching. That's not going to change. And I would just challenge you, if you're a parent, I believe you're called to love them and to live in that tension. You are the unique grace bearer and truth teller in their life that God's placed over and it will be sacrificial and it will be hard. I'll just say in my years of pastoral ministry, I've never seen it just turn out well when a parent just shuts them off based on this issue. And so I would say, how did you move in into the messiness of the grace while at the same time not sacrificing the truth? I wish I had one size fits all prescription, like I could go, man, if you just do this, every story's a little bit different. And while we're at this, could we do this for each other? Could we extend each other a little grace on how people are handling it? That you look at it and you go, "Well, I wouldn't have done that." You don't know. You're not in it.

CHIP: Well, Tim, thanks for tackling that really tough question. you really addressed: what are the principles behind that? What kind of feedback did you get in answering this particular question and anything you would share with those listening who are saying to themselves, “I needed that, but now what do I do?”

TIM: Yeah, it was interesting in every service you'd have different parents who came down and for the first time they're, they're telling their pastor, “Yeah, I've got a child who identifies as gay or a child who's trans.” And so it's almost a freeing point for them to be able to go, “Okay, I'm not alone in this.” And we were able to create some community for them to get them in touch with other pastors. So think the health of talking about it helps people do this life together. I think the other thing that I heard the most was people had not heard it framed in that way because they had always been told, “Well, you're the one rejecting me because of what I believe because I'm gay,” and to be able to turn around and go, “Well, no, you're also rejecting me because I identify in Christ and so this is a two way street on this and if we're going to have relationship, are you willing to love me despite what you reject in my life? While in the same way, I'm willing to love you despite with what I disagree with in your life,” and at least giving some level ground to build a conversation.

CHIP: Well, let's jump into perhaps the most controversial one, and I think it's the most important one inside the Church. And, you know, I've lived in the Bay Area for over twenty-five years, and Santa Cruz even more progressive than, you know, this side of what we call the Hill, Silicon Valley. And one of the things that's happening inside the Church is a whole theology that, being gay and being a follower of Christ are not mutually exclusive. And I thought you handled this really well. Let's take a listen…

TIM (Audio Clip): Can you be LGBT and be a Christian? Or put it this way, does being LGBT send you to hell? Now most people don't state it this harshly, but can I say this to you? This second form of the question is how many in that community hear it? And if you tell them I'm an evangelical Christian, many of them immediately go to that posture. "Oh, you think I'm going to hell because I'm gay?" Now, part of it, they've seen it on the news and they've seen different groups stand up with their signs and all that, and unfortunately, we get associated with all of that. But as you look at this and this question around it is, can somebody be gay and be a Christian? Can somebody be trans and be a Christian? Does that ongoing lifestyle send them to hell? Now let me reverse it. Of course it doesn't send them to hell because being straight doesn't send you to heaven. Okay? Just know that. In those categories.

And part of this, and I think it's important why we wrestle with these issues, especially sexual issues, because this is where you really have to wrestle. What do you believe about the Gospel? As it applies to some of the hardest areas in our life. As we look at it, here's the first thing I would say. Christ did not wait for us to clean up our lives in order to be worthy of salvation. This is what makes the Gospel. This is what makes Christianity so different than any other religion. Every other religion is telling you how to clean up your life in order to be worthy of god or worthy of Nirvana or worthy of whatever else is out there. It is a plan of how to get there. Christianity is this radical plan that says you won't get there. But Christ got there. I love what Paul says in Romans five. He says, "While we were still weak, at the right time, Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person, though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die, but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

And so a fundamental part whether, and it doesn't matter what the issue is, it doesn't matter if it's a sexual issue, any issue in life, we've got to start, if we're people of the Gospel that we start with the fact that Christ died for us while we were still sinner in any form. Then you add to that we are made righteous because of the work of Christ on the cross. So it's not behavior modification, it's not okay if I could just teach you to reform your behavior a little bit and you'll get that much better. Now we've got to start with this radical need that I have, but also the radical work of it. And we've looked at this verse several times, but I want to dive in again, because this is one of those ones I think Paul's laying out the categories and it includes some of the issues we're talking about. He says, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindler will inherit the kingdom of God."

That's a pretty long list of things that he says this is unrighteous behavior. This is unrighteous people. People whose lives are defined by this. Now, it is interesting when you read through the list our eyes, quickly go to the sexual ones. Oh, idolaters, oh homosexuality. We can go to those places. One, because it's pretty easy to define. You know when somebody's crossed that line. We probably don't go real quick to greedy. Anybody here struggle with being greedy? Nobody ever admits to being greedy. Greedy is always like that category, those people with it. And yet as Paul looks at it, he goes, man, how about idolatry? You ever place anything in your life as more important than God? That's idolatry. That marks unrighteousness in this. As you look at this category, I love again, look how Paul defines it.

He says, "Such were some of you." Now, he's not saying this just because, oh, they're all perfect, that everybody in the church in Corinth never struggles with greed again. That everybody in the church in Corinth never struggles with placing anything as an idol in their life. I mean any of these things, what he's saying is this is why you're not that person anymore. You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of God. This is what changed you, the work of Christ. Not because you've now cleaned up your act enough that you'd be considered that. Guys, if we don't get this right, we don't get the Gospel right. I'll be honest. And honestly it's easy as church, we can teach a moralism more than we really teach Gospel.

The radical change that happened in our life, the radical change that happened in our identity, the radical change that makes a difference before eternity is that if you, have embraced Christ as your Lord and Savior, you have literally been justified. God declared you righteous. And you're being sanctified, you're washed. And in his eyes, you are clean before him because of what Christ did. Now you hear that and you go, "Well, Tim, are you just saying then we're washed and then anybody can live any way they want? No, the Gospel always goes on. We have a responsibility to grow in our righteousness in Christ. In fact, Paul, we just looked at 1 Corinthians six where you made that declaration just a few verses later. Look what Paul says. He says, "Hey, you got a responsibility here. Flee from sexual immorality. Yes, Christ has washed you.

Yes, you've been changed. Yes, that's your identity. Now here's your responsibility in light of that." Man in any form, you flee from it. Every other sin a person commits outside of the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body's the temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You're not your own. He bought you. So it's not your decision anymore. So glorify God in your body. And so at a fundamental level, and again you go, "Tim, this seems pretty basic." It's so basic. We often miss it. And I think the places we miss it the most are in sexual brokenness. The place we know we need grace most, the place grace needs to be extended most is often in these areas. And the place that we've got to put that in place most is in these areas as well. And so as you look at that and you think about it, I would just encourage you that we've got to be honest with people about what Christ calls them to, while at the same time not setting up barriers in front of them that frankly, God didn't set up in front of us.

CHIP: Well, Tim, I believe that is the message that Christ calls us to. And this had to be one of the toughest questions. But I remember sitting there and listening and I thought it was so helpful that you really reframed the whole context of the question, you know, can an LGBTQ person be a Christian around not just that, but all of us with all of our sin? How does God look at that and how does that actually work? Tell me a little bit about why and how you've kind of provided a new context for that question that was so helpful.

TIM: Yeah, I think it comes down to: do we really frame everything around the Gospel? Are we more concerned with helping people live a more moral lifestyle, which frankly would make us feel more comfortable, or are we concerned with the fact that they come to Christ? You know, I look at the early Church in Acts 15 when they wrestled with this and they said, “We don't want to put any barriers in front of Gentiles coming to the Gospel.” But in the same statement they said, “But we will call them to live a life that's fully surrendered to Christ especially in the area of sexuality.” And so, I think it's that balance of no barriers.

CHIP: Right.

TIM: I'm not going to force you to clean up your life before you come to Christ, but in the same way no compromise. I'm not going to preach a Gospel that says, oh, you don't have to submit this part of your life to Christ. It's both and I think that's the struggle but so often we get them backwards and we put up barriers before they've ever even had the experience with Jesus, or we look at Christians and we kind of go, “Well, you can compromise there,” in a way that the early Church never would and so I think holding to both of those really keeps us in a safer place.

CHIP: Well, as I sat there my mind immediately went to, “Wait a second, your answer, that applies to adulterers. That applies to porn addiction. That applies to stealing at work. That applies to lust in our heart.” In other words, you reframed it around the Gospel. And I think it, especially for, you know, people that take the Bible seriously or maybe people that are conservative in lots of areas, it's kind of easy to cherry pick this issue of homosexuality and, man, we're going to bash that one. That's the sin. I mean, that's, you know, boy, there's the issue. And brush under the rug all the Gospel implications to live a holy life that we're all called to. I do wonder, I mean this one, you could hear a pin drop when you were answering this one. Any feedback that came out of this question that might be helpful for our listeners?

TIM: You know there was a little push back on both sides of the equation. You know, you have some who come and they would say, “Man, I feel like when you say no barriers you're really endorsing a lifestyle on that,” and then on the flip side of it you had some that were very uncomfortable because of the issue you just said it not only cuts across the issue of homosexuality but you've got a lot of adults in the Church that have embraced that it's okay to embrace a sexual lifestyle, and that we can compromise there. So when you really push on both sides of that it really makes everybody uncomfortable, which it should. I mean, if the Gospel was something that was comfortable to us we would have come to it but Scripture says none of us came to it on our own. And so, frankly, I was sort of relieved to get a little push back on both because I felt like okay we're presenting at least clearly enough that everybody's feeling it.

CHIP: You know, in the words of the apostle Paul, we're all under sin. And then the answer is the Gospel, not picking and choosing which of these that we find, the ones that we're guilty of, we find more acceptable. And the ones that are just, oh wow, that's terrible. The fact of the matter is, any sin separates us from God. And God's heart, He longs to restore all of us if we're willing.

TIM: Yeah, it's interesting. We serve a God who needs nothing from us, but in coming to Him, He asked for everything because every area of our life that we give to Him is always better. It doesn't mean it's cured, it doesn't mean it's perfect, depending on where you start. But everything that He asks us to submit is always better. And I think we have to hold to that even for people that this is a really hard truth in their life.

CHIP: Yeah. Well, these are not little, small questions and unfortunately, one of the reasons I asked you to come and I wanted to have a conversation is it's just easy, someone hears this podcast, someone else hears that podcast, someone reads this book that's pro, this book that's against. And I think what we're not doing inside the Church is talking openly and honestly. And we have some top-level questions that we're going to address in our next broadcast, like, should you attend a gay wedding? Should we use personal pronouns for transitioning people? And then even kind of those practical questions like, do you allow a gay couple to stay in your house overnight? I mean, this is real life church with people with kids and families and vacations and weddings that you go to and people from all kind of backgrounds. And so thanks for being here today. And in our next broadcast, we're going to jump right in and talk about those questions.