The Church and the Deconstruction Movement, Part 2

CHIP: It's so interesting at times when I'll, hang out with some people that are very strong on social justice. And I get it. They’re pounding the table on some of these values and attacking Christianity. And I want to say, pause. Do you know where that came from? Do you know where that came from? And so I think education really is important. I think we've got to help people understand who is Jesus, what has he done, and what do you believe him to be?

JOHN: Amen. It's so true. And one of the really unique things about this book, Jesus Skeptic, is it shows actual pictures and images of these artifacts because we live at a time when if you tell a young person, hey, did you know Harvard was actually started by a group of pastors? They were Puritan Christians. It was a Bible college. And it's not just Harvard. Every single one of the top 10 universities in the world were all started by Christians as Bible seminaries. They'll look at you just be like, there's no way that's true. So what we do in the Jesus Skeptic book is we actually have a picture. Here's the founding charter of Harvard. It's a historic artifact. And it says, this would be Yale's, it says, for the propagation of the Protestant Christian religion. Harvard has its own language for that and similar with the scientific fathers if you tell someone, know Isaac Newton, Blaise Pascal, Johannes Kepler The list goes on we're devout followers of Jesus people say no way it's true So we actually show images of their journals where they've written, you know poems about their love for God.

Same with women's rights the ending of slavery the creation not just public education, but literacy in general and this is all public record. You go back 500 years, most of the world, 90 some percent was illiterate. Literacy only happened where Christians were, because they wanted their kids to learn how to read the Bible. So even the word kindergarten comes out of the German Lutheran movement to say we want to teach our kinders, German for children, how to read so they can read the Bible. And once you start to see it and you see the undeniable evidence, by God's grace, we are seeing this open up the eyes of young people.

So earlier I was telling you about Amelia, who is 13 and was completely doubting all of it. And when she went to her mom, her mom, by God's grace, didn't express her panic, played it cool, said, hey, let's talk it through. Then went to her room, closed the door, cried, prayed. And as she was praying, God reminded her of this book, Jesus Skeptic. So then Amelia, And this is that thing where only God can control the timing. Ya know, if you hand a book to a teenager, typically they're not going to read it. But Amelia was curious and she was hungry. And her mom said, here's a book about, you said, is Christianity good? And that really is the thesis, if you will, of Jesus skeptic. Now in my journey, if you go back 20 years, when I was a teenager, my journey was, it true? And so for me, it was a lot of Josh McDowell books. It was a lot of resources around skeptics answered, and God used that.

So Amelia had a very similar moment with God to what I had 16 or so years ago, and she had it now, and Jesus Skeptic opened her eyes to, oh Christianity is good for the world. It's full of data that isn't just from Christian resources so lots of World Health and other data of what are the countries where women have the best rights and it's all countries you just then parallel what's the percentage of Christians? What are the countries where women have the worst rights and it's countries where Christianity is illegal? And at the end of Jesus Skeptic, lots of evidence that Jesus actually lived. That didn't used to be a question, but now it is. And so the evidence is overwhelming. And again, we show the artifacts. We show a Josephus manuscript. We show, you know, the coins of Herodias and others who wrote about Jesus of Nazareth at that time, even though they weren't Christians, Jewish, Greek, and Roman writers of the time.

So all that to say God used that book to get Amelia to, okay, Christianity is good. And then he used Lee Strobel's work to move her to, Jesus is God. So Christianity is good and Jesus is God. And God answered her mom's prayers. And not only is she now a believer, but she's now a leader. There's a group of about 20, they're now sophomores in high school. So it's been a couple years here and they get together and they're all girls who are just in love with Jesus. And they kind of lead their own Bible study. They're all public school kids and they get together at our church or at homes and just have these times of worship and Bible study, something that only God could do.

And so parents, grandparents, be encouraged, keep praying, keep providing the resources, keep being a safe place that they can ask these questions and God will answer your prayers in time.

CHIP: What a great reminder and a great word. What grew out of my journey was I really had to stop and I had to say, why do I believe? And because I was ministering at Santa Cruz at the time, it was a super progressive area. I mean very anti-Christian, anti-God. And yet we saw literally thousands of people come to church, come to Christ. And when they did, then it would be like, well, wait a second, this is counterintuitive to everything I've ever known.

And so I wanted to write a book from my own journey and from the research I'd done. How do you sit with a cup of coffee and not give people a bunch of facts, but how do you have a conversation, is it intellectually feasible that the documents of the Bible could actually be true? Is it true that, like you say, was Jesus actually a historical person? And what is amazing, John, you know I didn't know this, but my journey sent me on a level of research that was like, wow, wow.

And actually that's Lee Strobel's story as well. I mean, his wife came to know Christ and was like, my lands, what am I gonna do? She's into this religious junk and I've got to prove it's not true. And so we're gonna have a great month together where some will be some interviews, some will be some questions, some geared toward young people. Other stuff we're going to do is just going to be, okay, are you open? Are you willing to look at the facts? Could the Bible be true? We'll look at some scientific issues like, okay, in light of DNA, in light of the most recent scientific research by non-Christians who are now saying, well, there's a lot of options and even from Darwin's own words, we're not saying that the God of the Bible made everybody. But this did not happen by random chance. It is absolutely impossible. So anyway, we're going to have a lot of fun with all of this.

I do want to say something too, I've never heard of anyone doing this, and I'm so thrilled that you've done it. You've actually come up with a game plan that starts about 12 years old, middle school, through age 29, or like age 30. So it's not like you send them off to college, say good luck, hope things go well.

So talk about why you do what you do, what you're actually doing in this sort of raising up the strongest generation. And then be unapologetic. If someone wanted to get this, tell them how to get it. I mean, one of our roles at Living on the Edge is we're a catalyst. If there's something great other people have produced, We want everyone to hear about it and get it.

JOHN: All the resources that we are building are completely free and available to any parent and any church. So if you go to worldview, that's one word, worldview.cp for connection point, dot church. So worldview.cp dot church. Everything is hosted there. And so if you're at a church where you have Sunday school or you have youth group, whatever model you use as a church, this curriculum is available. The curriculum is built, like Chip said, from age 12 all the way up to age 29. Our focus in the local church is on middle school and high school. And really what we're doing is we're trying to anticipate what are the obstacles to faith.

And so we have different curriculum pieces, everything from here's an overview of world religions so that kids who attend our church know here's what a Muslim believes, here's what an atheist believes. We treat atheism and agnosticism as a world religion and we show where each of them break down intellectually. We show the cultural results. And then the other issues culturally that our young people run into, for example, sexuality. You what is biblical sexuality? And not only what does Scripture teach about biblical sexuality, including our LGBTQ classmates and coworkers, that's the world we live in, their classmates and coworkers and relatives, right? There can be siblings or cousins. What does Scripture say about it? And then how do we hold that position in a way that is full of grace and full of truth? In a way that says, hey, if you claim to be a follower of Jesus, here's what your life needs to look like. If you're not yet a follower of Jesus, my priority is to get you to the foot of the cross and let you know about Jesus, not to just change you morally, but to get you to Jesus. And we know that if anyone gets to Jesus, then he changes us morally.

So it is a wide array of intellectual, cultural, social, even some historical things where we feel like maybe if they're public school educated, they might be getting a different narrative that we kind of have to deconstruct.

CHIP: Yes, yes.

JOHN: And what's really kind of encouraging, you know you hear this metaphor of a pendulum swinging in culture. And in the last 10 years, probably, we saw the pendulum swing really extreme, anti-Christian and pro a bunch of other stuff. What I'm seeing right now, with especially what I'd say is like kind of 8th to 12th graders right now, is the pendulums almost go in the other way.

And when I described at the beginning of our time, I grew up in such a cloistered Christian environment that I, in my teenage curiosity thought they're hiding something from me. I need to go see what else is out there. We are meeting more and more teenagers who feel that way about Christianity. They're like, everyone says it's bad, but I know Christians who are good, what's it actually about? And then we're able to meet them there, take them into Jesus skeptic. look, historically, Christians have been good. And there have been bad people in history who claim to be Christians.

CHIP: Yes.

JOHN: And that goes all the way back to Jesus. He said there would be wheat, there would be tares. There was a Judas from Jesus own 12.

So we can acknowledge were there some people who claimed to be Christians who owned slaves, who did bad things? Yes, there were. But what our young people are being taught is only that. And when we come in and we show actual documentation to show that group was the minority, and if you look at that group's writings, they weren't really sincerely following Jesus. They were just kind of utilizing Christianity for their own benefit. They weren't the sincere, what did Jesus' words say? How are we living it out?

So I could go on and on, but we've got this system now be patient with us. We're still building a lot of this the curriculum for 8th to 12th is built. What we're now doing is we pair every high school graduate with a career mentor. So whatever field they're going into let's say they're gonna go pre-law we pair them up with an attorney in our church to guide them through their college years. And then the other thing we do is wherever they go to college if they don't go to a Christian college We partner with the Christian ministries on campus and we know those ministries. So we're in Indiana, if they're going to Purdue, we know exactly what ministry, we're walking them there, we're introducing them to the leader so that during their college years, they're surrounded by believers, they have a career mentor, and then we continue with them to age 29.

And by God's grace, only God could do it, but we believe he's gonna use us to end the trend of two out of three drifting. So all that to say, our tools are completely free. We'd love to share it with all of you. Maybe someday this could all be nationwide where we've got career mentors all around the country, but right now we're kind of building it all in the local church and willing to share it freely with parents and other churches.

CHIP: Well, thank you first for doing it. Second, thanks for being generous. And just one thing I know that you didn't say is you kind of gave the curriculum for the head side of it, but you all actually have not just the relationships afterwards, but during, and you have the feet, you have these young people interacting with believers and unbelievers and meeting some of the least of these needs. So instead of this over in this church and this is what we believe and there's poor people over here or there's a gay pride parade, they're getting in the world, building relationships, meeting these people, loving them and learning.

You know, we all have stereotypes and if you're a follower of Jesus, you're narrow, anti-intellectual, bigoted, on and on and on. And then like you said, until they meet a genuine follower of Christ. Well, my experience is a lot of Christians, they have this idea that everyone who says they're transgender or everyone who's LGBTQ is like, they've got this picture. And I just want to scream, people are individuals. And you never learn to love You don't love them. You don't judge them. Every single person has a story and they believe what they believe or they're living how they live or they have a behavior or a lifestyle that actually makes sense from where they've come from. And most of them have never met a Christian that loves them, accepts them. You don't have to agree with their lifestyle or what they think or why.

And I just love that you are having young people build relationships with people that aren't in that sort of, what'd you call it, cloistered (JOHN: Yeah.) sort of view and have the confidence that guess what, that's a good thing. Moms and dads, relax. They need to have friends that are very, very different. Their closest friends need to be on the same page. So I just think you are, you're addressing the intellectual, the head, the heart issues and also the feet. You're taking them to some places that maybe moms and dads might be a little uptight now and then, but you've seen some really good things happen, haven't you?

JOHN: Oh we have. And you know, the encouragement for parents and grandparents is, you know, what we believe really is true and it really does work. And so that's where your safety is. It's not that they'll never encounter something opposite. The only way for that to happen is to you know, seal them off from all of society. So they will encounter a lot of opposition, but the truth prevailed. It really does work. And that's what the Jesus Skeptic Book demonstrates. It works for societies and it works for individuals. And so we want to be guiding them, coaching them. And that's where the more we can be a safe place for them to process those things. And of course, we want to be praying, God, bring them close friends. I know with my own kids, that's a daily thing. I'll go through seasons where I'm watching and their closest friends and you know for one or another, hey Lord please bring maybe a little stronger Christian or bring you know.

And so keep praying and Chip I just want to thank the Living on the Edge family for really these resources that our church is building are the result in a lot of ways of the time where I got to be mentored by you. So anyone who's supporting you and what you're doing, what God's doing through me is fruit that is connected to your branch, which is of course connected to the vine of Christ Himself. But thank you to everyone who's invested into Chip because he's invested into me in a way that God's really using right now and I'm humbled to be part of.

CHIP: Well, we are a disciple making ministry seeking to produce Romans 12 Christians who live out their faith. And John, you are doing that in a tremendous way and it brings me great joy. And you talked very clearly about, you know, if your kid goes to a secular university, a Purdue or whatever, you know, good schools. I went to a secular university and please don't assume that because your son or daughter goes to a Christian university that all the students there and the values there will be what you hope they'll be.

Therefore, you can take your foot off the gas because what I've found is one of the most dangerous places in the world for Christians to be is in what I call a pseudo-Christian environment. In other words, it verbally says, this is what we believe, but then, you know, underneath of it, the great majority, maybe sometimes even the professors, but usually the faculty is on board. But if there's a significant percentage of students that really aren't walking with God and they're living alternative lifestyles, what you experience is a level of hypocrisy that turns you off.

And so I would just say, choose your college as well. And also don't assume, even if it's a good school, I have a granddaughter who's a sophomore in an excellent, I mean, a really, really excellent Christian university that's doing so many things so well, so right. And she was home on break and she said, grandpa, Could you pray that God will bring some really serious Christians into my life? She said, you know, they all, you know, they love God and we go to classes and we're learning the Bible. But I mean, people that really hunger for Jesus that are in the Bible on a regular basis that want their lives to count. I'm just having a hard time finding those kind of Christians. And she said, and you know, I struggle. I want to be that kind of a Christian. And so I think your word about who your friends are is a really good word. And just say to parents, they still need your support.

One of the cop outs that we can as parents have or grandparents is, they're just going through a phase. So we back away and somehow unconsciously, five years or 10 years, they're going to come out the other end. Well, they come out the other end when people intervene and pray passionately and ask questions and aren't afraid to gently rock the boat. And so is your boyfriend a Christian? And if you hear things like, well, I think he believes in God. Well, that's not exactly what I ask. And tell me a little bit about your friends, because they still respect you and they've probably heard the right things. But now they're on their own and they're taking some steps and making some decisions, we as parents can't be afraid of a little rejection or maybe even a little mild conflict to raise those issues gently and get them on the table because if we don't, there's not probably anyone who will. So just a word from a concerned father, grandparent, fellow pastor here. And John, any thoughts as we close up today?

JOHN: I think my closing thought would just be an encouragement to parents, grandparents, pastors, listening, who you know someone, you're praying for them, and maybe it seems impossible. Six years ago, when we as a church circled up around, we're gonna do everything in our power to raise the strongest generation, the statistics, the cultural currents all looked impossible. And after six years of praying daily and doing everything within our power, including financially investing, we really are seeing God bring a harvest. There's kind of a youth revival movement happening in our teens and students. And it's six years of work.

And so I just want to encourage you, don't give up on praying. Don't give up on, you know, sending those different Jesus skeptic or Chip's book, Why I Believe, other resources that you can get to folks. Get them those resources, keep praying, keep just asking curious questions. Even if there's been conflict in the past, don't give up. The more curious you'll be and draw them out and let them talk, it can repair past damage. So be curious, ask those questions, keep praying. God can absolutely do this.

CHIP: Amen. My final thought would be all the research tells us that of children who drift away, one of the core issues was the lack of seeing a vibrant faith in their family. And it's never too late. But Jesus in Luke 6:40 said a student when he is fully trained or she is fully trained will be just like his teacher. And so the one thing that we can do that we have 100% control over is we can ask ourselves, Lord, does my life reflect Jesus? Am I walking with you in a way that my child would like to emulate? Everything from how I drive to where my values are, to what I watch, to how we spend our money? Not in any legalistic, but is Jesus, the focus, the center, and the Lord of my life. Your life has such power. And even for some of you who feel like, wow, thanks Chip, way too little, way too late. I have seen and have had to in certain areas of my life pause, stop, get one of my adult children and say, you know, I did not model this well and I wish I would have, and I think it's done some damage. And I'm going to ask you to forgive me. And I'm addressing that in my life.

And that's a very humbling thing to do, but it's amazing that I think brokenness, John, is something that opens doors. You know, to be able to say to one of your kids, know, I wish I would have done better when I recognize I blew it in these ways or...You know, I did some things now looking back that you've kind of emulated my example and you certainly don't want the consequences that I've experienced.

And so I think it's that heartfelt, deep love, fervent prayer. And then none of us are perfect. Let's keep walking with the Lord, understanding He's our Father. He's a patient. He's understanding. And He longs to empower us to be the moms, dads, grandparents, young people that he wants us to be.

So my friend, thanks for what you're doing there in Indiana. And my prayer is that you will be inundated with people going to worldview.cp.church and people will be downloading things and discipling their kids. And we're going to see our youth and our young adults walk with God in a new way because we're going to focus on it the way you guys are. So thanks again, my friend.

JOHN: Amen.