The Church and the Deconstruction Movement, Part 1

CHIP: You may have heard of a worship leader or a famous pastor, or you may have a friend or a young person or a not so young person who says something like, well, I used to be a Christian. I used to believe in Jesus. I used to believe in the Bible. I used to go to church, but that's not for me anymore. I don't believe that anymore.

And it's called deconstruction. And it's something that's very, very common in our day. And so I wanted to pause after our series that we just had in the Book of Mark, where we looked at the gospel, who Jesus is, who He claimed to be, the life that he offers, and the call to follow him, and really ask and answer the question is this believable? Is Christianity good? Is our faith something that's still really legitimate? And how do we talk to those who say, I just don't believe that anymore.

I think the research says that two out of three young people who grow up in Bible-believing evangelical churches leave the faith five years after high school. And we have a lot of parents and grandparents and pastors and fellow young people who say to me, you know, I went to school with this person, I went to college with them, and they were on fire for the Lord, and they've walked away from the faith.

My son pastors a church here in the Silicon Valley. It's about 12 years old. And I would say the average age is maybe 28 years old, just filled with, I don't know, four or five, 600 young people. And for about five years, Theresa and I had the privilege of participating in that church. And we looked around and I mean, is no one even, middle age would be like rare, but ya know like over 55, over 65 would be like, man, I think there's maybe three people here.

And so we opened our home and had a small group. And I still remember we had about nine or 10 people come to our small group and about six of them were all mid-20s and below. And I just asked them, tell me a little bit about your story. Four of those six young people all grew up in what I would consider very strong Christian homes and very clearly Bible-believing churches. And I asked them about their journey, and they talked about college, and then they talked about their world, and then they made this statement. I don't know what I believe anymore. It's not that I don't believe in God. But I don't know what I believe, I don't know what I can trust. And after my time in college and living here in a sort of really secular place, the Silicon Valley, I'm just not sure about God, I'm not sure about Jesus, I'm not sure about what's true, I'm just not sure about Christianity anymore.

And if you've had a conversation like that with someone, I want to tell you that we're going to spend the next many programs exploring maybe why is that and what would God say to us because there is real hope? And to do that, I've invited a friend, you know, compared to me, he's young, John Dickerson, welcome.

JOHN: Hey, thanks, great to be with you.

CHIP: John and I had the privilege of working together and I'll let John give you a little bit background about his life. But when I met him, John had been an award-winning journalist from that, God led him to be a pastor and then he wrote a book that had a huge impact in the evangelical community called The Evangelical Recession. Where he did research and what he helped all of us see is we thought things were way better than they were. And he did some very journalistic research and said, you know what, we've all been saying these things about Christianity and about young people and about how many Christians there are. And it was really radical and it was very alarming.

John, God has led you and the church that you pastor in Indiana to really address this issue about the next generation. So let's just start with, give us a little background about who you are, how we know each other, and then we'll jump in.

JOHN: Yeah, thanks, Chip. This is such a joy, this entire topic of young people who've grown up in Christian homes, including middle-aged people. I'm now 42. I'm a millennial, so we've got millennials who are in their 40s now. And I want to share a little of my journey, because I'm guessing many of your listeners, it's similar to their journey. And it may be similar to their kids' journey for some who grew up in a Christian home and have wondered, is this really what I'm going to believe?

And then in our time together, I'd also just love to share about some of the young people in our movement here in Indiana, where we are seeing them wrestle through what's called Gen Z and Gen Alpha is even the younger generation coming up now. And that the struggles are not always exactly the same for everyone, but there are definitely some common themes.

So for mine, I grew up in a really strong Bible believing Christian home where it was a Christian school education, my dad was a pastor, and it was almost so strong that I didn't really have much exposure to the outside world. And so I do think for young people growing up in a really strong Christian family, that can be one of the questions.

And it typically happens, you know, somewhere between age 12 and 25. And frankly, I don't know that it just happens once. In my journey, kind of from about 14 to 25, I was kind of constantly reassessing. So I would have little breakthrough moments and then I'd have skeptical moments. And I think it's something to be aware of.

The statistic back in 2013 when the Great Evangelical Recession book came out was two out of three young people drifting away from the faith. between the ages of 18 and 29. What I'm seeing now on the front lines as our church has really made it kind of our banner to end the trend of two out of three drifting away and positively to raise the strongest generation, I'm seeing that this is getting younger and younger. It used to be 18 to 29. And then I think if you went back six or seven years ago, it was probably 16 to 29. I really think now it's almost like 12 to 29.

Just heard a story of a gal here in our church who'd grown up in a great Christian family, incredibly Bible believing, and had her crisis of faith at age 13, where she, know, strong Christian church, public school education, and for her, these just two very different worlds. One had to be right and one had to be wrong. Even though she's a generation that wouldn't profess quote absolute truth, it was just clear. Either what all my friends at school and teachers are saying is true, or what my parents are saying is true, it contradicts what do I do with it. And that was a scary moment for mom and dad. When 13-year-old Amelia comes and says, mom, don't know if I even believe in God anymore.

And so much good out of that story that I'd love to encourage any parents who are listening. It's never too late in prayer. It's never too late to be a safe place. Amelia's mom did a great thing in that she when Amelia brought her this doubt, her mom really made an effort to be a safe place for her. She didn't jump right on with a whole bunch of answers, but kind of put on a game face and said, hey, you need to know we love you no matter what, and God's gonna get us through this. And then, you the way the mom tells the story, then she went to her room and cried. But just in her crying, called out to God, God, only you can capture the heart of my daughter. Only you can show me the way forward. And by God's grace, this is one of those where God showed up.

CHIP: What you just said is so critical. The opposite response will repel your child. I have lots of stories that are very negative that go just the opposite. Like, I mean, the parents pounce on them and here's more Bible verses and what do you mean you doubt? And Jesus is the answer. And then they get uptight. And pretty soon the kid feels more and more and more and more pressure. And what it does is it pushes them away.

God is big enough to reach into your child's heart. And whether it's 12 or whether it's 15 or whether it's 22 and they've come back from college to be able to say, help me understand that. Well, what's brought you to this? Where are your doubts? And to actually reinforce that having doubts are a part of the journey of developing a deep and strong faith.

I think in some cases, parents want their kids to turn out right and to have the faith, they push them to be baptized before they're really ready. They push them to take steps that they don't really believe but they please their parents. And then they find themselves in a world where they have to answer these questions to their peers or in high school or in college. And what they realize is they really don't have a foundation. They got their parents' faith.

JOHN: That's right. I've been there with my own kids and it takes a lot of self-discipline in that moment where they're expressing doubts because we know how high the stakes are, it's eternal. And so, I have a lot of empathy for that and just completely agree. I think the biggest kind of pro tip for me on that scenario, if you have a kid or grandkid who comes to you, is the insight that what's often expressed as an intellectual doubt typically has a more emotional or relational root to it. And so ask questions to try to get to that.

CHIP: Yes.

JOHN: So for example, the story of Amelia that I was sharing a moment ago, well, she had lots of LGBTQ plus friends at school who felt like Christianity hated them. And they were feeding her a narrative, which is the mainstream cultural narrative right now. It's shifting a little bit, but it's still the predominant narrative in most of education and media that you know, Christianity is oppressive, it's anti-equal rights, and that it actually hates certain people. Of course, this isn't true, but it is what our young people, and also our people of all ages, are hearing day in and day out, from sun up to sun down. And so often, you know, what will be expressed is, don't know if I can believe, I don't know if it's true, comes out of, well, I've got this friend and I care about her, and I'm not sure how I can reconcile all that.

So continuing to ask those questions. In my case, growing up in a really biblical home that was pretty cloistered. It made me so curious about you know, what do non Christians believe? And so I was actually so curious I would go to the public library and look up, you know, what did Darwin write? What do Muslims believe? And in the community when I'd see LGBTQ people who were just so opposed to Christianity, I would actually go to a coffee shop and engage them in conversation because I felt like my parents, they were only giving me one side of the story. And there was just this natural part of growing up of, I need to see what everyone else thinks.

And so I think when parents and grandparents can be a safe place to process, here's what other people believe, and not always give the answer. Because if we just force feed them the answer, it's not going to stick. We need to help guide them on a journey. where they're able to ask the questions that they're wrestling with at their age and in their circumstance. And we kind of guide them, always guiding them back to unchanging scripture and to Christ himself.

CHIP: Amen. I remember, um I had this professor that I really liked, John, and he was brilliant. And he said, I could never figure out, and I guess part of this was a compliment, how someone with what I perceive with a pretty significant intellectual acumen could actually believe in this dead Jesus, this old Bible. He goes, I just don't get it. You just seem like...You've got more gray matter that how do you buy that old story? And that did not cause me to give up my faith. That did not cause me to question. But what it caused me to do was he asked me three or four questions, John, that I could not answer. And it sent me on the journey you're talking about where I said, Lord, I'm not going to throw my brains in the trash to be a follower. If this is true, then this will be true. And it really sent me on a journey of digging deep and exploring both philosophy and some things that actually became at the heart of some things we'll learn later about why I personally believe and how God really showed up.

So you went through your time of doubting tell us a little bit about the turning point of this is really true. This curiosity wasn't just about religious things or spiritual things. It really led you down a path to uncover, if you will, what's true in some pretty other exciting areas.

JOHN: Yeah, that's right. I ended up going into a journalism career really driven by how does the world actually work? What's actually true? What's actually not true?

And just an encouragement to every parent and grandparent. We know that promise that “The Word of God does not return void”. We know that promise that “train up a child in the way they should go, and in the end, they will not depart from it” I like that older translation because it doesn't mean they might not wander a veer off path, but in the end. Hold on to that promise.

And so for me then as I began my career as an investigative reporter, I found myself one week I'd be profiling literal heroin addicts and the next I might be profiling a billionaire or an NFL athlete and literally just got to see the entire strata of humanity from the lowest lows to the highest highs. And through it all, the principles of the Word of God were just proven true over and over again, especially so many things in Proverbs.

I remember a day where my news editor called me into his office and he said, John, you're in your 20s, but you're so worldly wise. There's times when people are lying to you as a reporter and somehow you know they're lying and most people in their 20s wouldn't. How did you get so worldly? He said. And by worldly, he meant worldly wise. And I thought honest answer book of Proverbs, like I grew up reading the book of Proverbs, you know, every month we would go through the book of Proverbs, reading the Proverb for the day. And so really the Word of God had been planted into my heart and mind as a young person. When I set out to explore life, the Word of God did its work. And of course, my parents were praying for me every single day.

And Chip, I love that story you shared about that college professor really saying how could someone as bright and promising as you believe this? I think that moment is a moment that anyone who chooses Jesus in America today they will have a moment like that and so I think what we can normalize for parents and grandparents is um you can have a kid who really does love the Lord and is seeking God and they're gonna have classmates, coworkers, bosses, college professors ridicule their faith and even say things like, seem like such a nice person, I can't believe you'd be into that. And in that moment, it will shake them a little bit.

And the hope would be, I think the prayer would be as a parent or grandparent, that you're able to be someone who is a safe place that they can go to for stability in that moment.

CHIP: And I think even as we're talking about next generation and people that are younger, there's people that made some of those decisions 10, 20, 25 years ago. And for whatever reason, they find themselves listening to you and me talk and thinking, yeah, I used to believe all that stuff. And yet they can't shake part of it and they don't have good answers. And I guess what I would say as we move forward is stick around all month. We're going to look at the intellectual issues. We're going look at the emotional issues. We're going to look at the impact of Christianity. We're going to really ask the tough questions, but also start to ask the questions as they're being asked today because they're very different than when I was growing up. My question was, is truth relative or is it absolute? I think today the question has shifted is Christianity even good?

JOHN: I would suggest that probably the younger a person is, most likely there asking is it good for the people I care about? Is it good for society? Is it good for me? And generally the older person is the more likely they're asking is it true? Now I don't think it's a hard cutoff. It's a kind of a gradient crescendo kind of transition over the generations of which one they're asking. What we've done here, and I just want to encourage parents and grandparents with this, we went all in as a church six years ago to say, we believe we're called by God to do everything in our power to end the trend of two out of three young people drifting away.

So Chip mentioned my first book back in 2013 called The Great Evangelical Recession, wrote that as an investigative reporter. There were six trends of decline in the American church. One of those trends is this trend of two out of three young people. drifting away. Obviously, if that continues, then Christianity will eventually just dissolve as a cultural force.

And so as I prayed after that book made a bit of a splash and God called me to be a lead pastor, God, what are you calling us as a church to do? He just, of those six trends, said, focus on this one. If you could be a church where you'd end the trend of two out of three young people drifting away, like the book of Psalms says, “We all labor in vain unless the Lord builds the house.”

And so, setting out that goal, that's an impossible goal. And if you're listening to this and you have a loved one who's drifted away and you feel like it's impossible, one, you're correct. But two, we have a God who does impossible things. And I wanna encourage you, we've seen God bless our prayers and our efforts over these last six years. Our congregation has gone all in on this financially. We've actually hired a whole additional staff team outside of our normal kids and student ministry called our Youth Worldview team. One of them has a PhD in apologetics and they are building a curriculum that helps our middle and high school students wrestle through all these questions at church in a safe place. But it's not just intellectual, it's all about relationships as well.

And I'd encourage you with your kids and your grandkids, always be encouraging them Here's the way I say it to my kids. What are the three most important choices you'll make in your life? First, do you trust in Jesus as your savior? Have you, you know, received him as your Lord? Second, who will you marry? And third, who will your closest friends be? Because you're gonna marry someone who comes from your friend group. You know, that relational piece, we can force feed the intellectual curriculum. But if a teenager, and this is also true for someone in their 20s, 30s, 40s, really for all of us, if their four or five closest friends aren't also living it out and experiencing it, it's not going to fully stick.

And so we use a paradigm that Chip, one of our good friends, Aaron Pierce gave to me called head, heart, and feet. And we actually utilize that paradigm through all of our Youth Worldview curriculum for our church that The intellectual side is so important and we go really deep with them on that. And different ones have a different hunger and appetite and it varies. You know, it's not like all 14 year olds have the same appetite. It goes in waves, it comes and goes in waves. They're always kind of asking, is it true, is it good, and what does it look like? But we try to give them really good tools.

So for example, we've now kind of trained our young people to say, you know what, Isaac Newton, Martin Luther King Jr., Clara Barton, were all really strong believers in the same thing, I believe. So if you think that they were bad for society or you think that they were anti-intellectual, sorry. And so, I mean, our teenagers have learned that, and that's just one little zinger, but that's kind of symbolic of us training them to understand the movement you're a part of is not anti-intellectual. In fact, not just Newton, Johannes Kepler, Blaise Pascal, lot of the founders of modern science were Bible-believing Christians.

CHIP: Well John, that is so true because so often there's not a sense of history. And by the way, could we be honest too? Some of the snapshots are really ugly, really bad, really anti-intellectual, really bigoted, really narrow, and have treated people terribly. So let's just, know, part of the PR problem, if you will, is a lot of Christians don't live like Christians. But when you open up and say, wait a second, where did, where did public education, where was that birthed? Hospitals, orphanages, where was that birthed?

We're going to talk about all these things because you wrote another book called Jesus Skeptic, and you really addressed the goodness of Christianity and the historical impact over centuries that what I find is when old people or young people read that book, You know, you just scratch your head and you go, no, wait a second, John. Are you telling me that the Harvard that we know today or the other Ivy League schools today that, you know, are spouting things that are like, whoa. So, I mean, their insignias are biblical verses about the truth. And, you know, when you point those things out and instead of a young person or maybe a not so young person feel like Wow, especially here in the Silicon Valley, you can feel like you're such a minority.

But it takes that lens and you pull it back over the last 2000 years and you say, oh my, the shaping of law, the shaping of justice, the idea that mercy is a- is a virtue. That wasn't true in the New Testament times. It was power. It was ruthless that every human being has value. It's so interesting at times when I'll, hang out with some people that are very strong on social justice. And I get it. They’re pounding the table on some of these values and attacking Christianity. And I want to say, pause. Do you know where that came from? And so I think we've got to help people understand who is Jesus, what has he done, and what do you believe him to be?