Understanding the Global Youth Culture and Equipping the Church to Reach the Next Gen

CHIP: Well, thanks so much, Dave. We do have a really special guest and a very close friend. And Aaron, tell us a little bit about your journey, just for those that may not be familiar with you or our relationship.

AARON: Chip, it's just an honor to be on this call with you and to talk with you and just to serve with you. And I've always been so grateful for you and the influence you've had in my life. You know, like I always considered you a mentor even before I knew you. And so you've had a big influence on my life. And yeah, so I grew up as a missionary kid in Amsterdam. And you've met my parents and they were missionaries in Amsterdam. They had a heart to reach young people that wouldn't walk into a church, which if you consider a city like Amsterdam, that's pretty much all young people. And they see these big, beautiful cathedrals that are often closed on Sunday and they're museums. And so many people, they just view the church as a tradition of the past, not relevant to my life. And you find that a lot of people living in this secular culture, for some of them, religious ideas, it's just kind of they're apathetic to it. It doesn't really... don't think about it all that much. Some are even cynical or hostile, and yet many are very... to spirituality of various kinds. And there's all kinds of spiritual expressions that people draw to. And so in that environment, I just saw a secular culture where people who might not walk into a church on a Sunday, and yet we're still hungry for the very things that Jesus brings. And so that idea of how do we bring the gospel, which is as relevant today, to a culture that often thinks it's not. And that was the environment I grew up in as a kid, got to see God move and change lives. And it kind of ruined me in a really good way because I saw, you know, that Jesus is real and he changed lives. And so, yeah, that was the context that then led me to lead this mission called Steiger that's mobilizing followers of Jesus to reach young people who would not walk into a church.

CHIP: So now you have teams that are reaching young people. How many cities around the world now?

AARON: It's over 275 cities, which is wild because when you were with us a few years ago, it was about 90. And so we've just seen tremendous growth over the last few years, an explosion of the move of God reaching young people around the world.

CHIP: Well, as we now say that and say, well, there's spiritual hunger and God's really, really working, I'm going to talk to parents and grandparents who are sitting in a little bit different situation, who — their kids went to a Christian school. They went to youth group. They sat around the table. Some of them did little family devotions. They either went away to college or there was a gradual drift. They're late teenagers. They're middle 20s. They're some in early 30s now. They want nothing to do with God, often nothing to do with their parents. Some have not only drifted from the faith, some have rejected, some have deconstructed. At what point — you know, we've heard the stats for quite a while — what point, from your perspective, because you've come up through it all, more than a cultural trend, you saw this as a genuine crisis?

AARON: Yeah. Well, you know, like you, Chip, I get the opportunity to preach at churches and conferences and events all over the world, including here in the U.S. And after I preach, I would have a line of parents and grandparents coming to talk to me, tears in their eyes, talking about their young adult child. And honestly, the volume and consistency of their story, most now seeming to be involved in LGBTQ as well. And just all of that, there was just so much pain and so much heartache and also a sense of not knowing what to do that God began to break my heart for these parents and grandparents and just saying, God, we got to serve them. We got to equip them. And so this went from statistics and trends to something deeply personal for me because of the stories that I was hearing from these parents and grandparents.

CHIP: Well, let me pause for a moment here, and I want you to... invite a parent or grandparent who feels like, you know, I don't think there's any hope. They won't talk to me, or, you know, I don't bring up religion anymore at all. I can't even talk about Jesus and I don't get it. I don't understand. Not saying that their sons and daughters who've drifted or are deconstructing are right. But could you, like, invite them to sit down at a table just with you and me, maybe picture a cup of coffee, and would you help them understand how their kids and grandkids are thinking, how they view the world that is so different than their parents, so different than their grandparents, and so different from the, you know, go to church, be a good person, don't get anybody pregnant, don't get pregnant, don't get on drugs, don't drink alcohol, and be a good, nice person — that somehow with the algorithms and all the things that have happened in social media and the culture caused this break between their view of Jesus, Christianity, and their parents. Help that parent or grandparent understand. And by the way, if you're a parent or grandparent and you're thinking, oh, please speak — could I ask you to lean back right now? Some of this... very painful. Some of you have dealt with a lot of anger, others with a lot of guilt. Our goal here is we got to build some bridges. And to do that, we need to step back a little bit and discover what they're feeling, how they're thinking — not saying it's always right or true by any means. But if you don't understand that... prayer that I pray often by St. Francis, where he says, Lord, grant that I may seek to understand more than to be understood. Seek that I may love more than to be loved. That idea of empathy. Help us. What do you hear from these kids? I mean, you meet them on the street. You've met them at LGBT rallies. You've met them in places that most Christians never go. And you hear their stories. Help that parent or grandparent.

AARON: You nailed it, which is, I think, so often in this context, we're looking to tell people the answer rather than first to understand. And I actually think in order to really communicate Jesus effectively, we need to know what they're thinking, what's influencing them. And so we live in a culture, this generation, that is quite distinct from a few generations ago. And the voices and influences that's shaping how they see the world, essentially, the main — like, you know, 2 Corinthians 4:4 says, the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers. The God of this age is what I would describe as secular humanism. And it's this idea that God has been replaced. And I am at the center. I'm God. And there's no outside authority that can tell me how to live my life. It's the era of my truth, and all identity, purpose and morality is self-constructed. You know, in the Christian worldview, we discover those things because God designed those things. In the secular world, I design it. I develop it. I decide who I am. I decide what's right and wrong. I decide the purpose for my life. And it sounds liberating. It sounds like freedom, but the truth is this worldview is actually quite destructive. It's like poison wrapped in bubble gum. It looks all sweet and shiny on the outside, but it's actually destroying people. It's like it says in Proverbs 16:25, there's a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. And so what we have is this culture that's telling people: it's all about you. There are no rules. The rules are fake. Just do what you want. Do what makes you feel good. And so what we have, instead of freedom, we're finding bondage. We have a culture that is confused, that's sexually broken, lonely, anxious, depressed. This is the felt need of our culture. And what's interesting is secular culture does not deny those things. They just don't have a good answer to them. So this is all that's going on. And there's so much confusion. Like, take the topic of love — you know, we all, of course, we have this innate desire for love and intimacy. It's how God wired us. But our culture is incredibly confused about love. Because on one hand, you have hookup culture, where sex is basically just a physical act for pleasure, and apart from consent, there's no moral guidance. And so, just do what makes you happy — you got that on one side. And then on the other side, in the same breath, we're looking for the one that will complete us, that will satisfy all our needs and desires, that person that will fill the emptiness. And so you got these two extremes that people believe about love. No wonder we're confused. No wonder we're broken. And so I think the response to all of this shouldn't be, what's wrong with you? How dumb could you be? But rather it should be, like Jesus, which is to have compassion on those that are confused — which is really what I would say that's the state of our culture is, we're confused. And so this is the air that people are breathing today. And then you add to that a general skepticism towards authority and towards, like, religious institutions. And so even though Jesus has the answers to what they are looking for, they're not looking to the church. Like, think about it — Jesus brings truth to the confused. He brings healing to the sexually broken. He brings the ultimate relationship with the creator restored, and with the church. And he brings peace that transcends understanding. We have the answers to the cry of this generation, but they're not looking to the church. So part of it is just recognizing the cultural moment that we're in. And how do we now communicate Jesus in that context?

CHIP: And that's what I want to talk about, because I think when I was with your team, and as we built time together, one of the reasons that we partnered together to develop the book, Not Beyond Reach, is what I saw was — maybe this is part of my giftedness — is I saw that you all literally had a very clear process that you walked people through, that you were so close to it, you almost didn't see it. I mean, but it was so clear. And I thought, oh, my — first of all, they go where lost people go. Second, they don't judge them. They ask questions and they listen. Third, you all would have spiritual conversations that everyone has — loneliness, and what's life all about, and what's your purpose — with no judgment, and often with a bottle of water or a meal. And then you would have Bible studies for non-Christians. You could ask anything, no pushing. And yet what you did is you built safety and then you ask them questions. Honestly, in their confusion, they couldn't really answer, but they felt loved and it was safe. And they were now open to do something they hadn't done before. Instead of packaging Jesus with religion, or "this is what my parents believe," or "this is connected to some political figure or some building" — all of a sudden, you are introducing them to the Jesus of the New Testament in a very safe way. But you built a lot of bridges. And then you had that gospel conversation. You let them understand that the root issue is sin for all of us, that there is a Savior, there is hope. And so, you know, that book was to codify that. And by the way, it's had huge impact. Let me say this: Mary's 22 years old. She doesn't talk to her parents anymore. She's in an alternative lifestyle. She does, you know, just mild — smokes some weed. Has her own life, is pretty disengaged from her parents, and her parents feel like, "I just can't get through to Mary anymore." Or you can make it George, who's 24. You're sitting down with them, and you've met them at a coffee shop. They have some alternative sort of symbols around that let you know, "this is my new identity." Would you help a parent... listen to you sit down and could you just have a conversation with that person? Maybe you notice — I often do this when you notice a tattoo that you know has some symbolism, and I will often say something, "wow, that's an interesting tattoo, tell me a little bit about that" — which is a completely different approach than "why'd you get that." So help that parent understand what you actually say. Because I want to talk about a resource that we have for them, but I think they need to hear, okay, it's confusing, the world's messed up, but they're living in pain. How do you go about connecting with this person that would model for them how they could go about doing it?

AARON: Yeah. Well, I think the complexity here is distinct when it comes to parents and grandparents, because the dynamic can get a little more emotional. It can get a little more — there's more going on. And so one of the things I would say is there is this tendency to want to rush in with the answers, and "here, look at this article," or, you know, "the Bible says this," and kind of come in hot with your answers. And I think, obviously, the truth is truth and people need to hear the truth. But I think when it comes to kids, parents and grandparents interacting with their kids, often I think that the key is that you need to be relationally present in their life. What the enemy wants to do is to divide and to disconnect and isolate. And I think what you need to do is, first and foremost, show them with your actions that even if you don't agree with their lifestyle, even if you don't agree with their choices, you love them, and nothing is going to change that. And you will pursue them and meet them on their turf. And part of what you're doing is you're challenging some lies that they believe — that they're going to be rejected, that you don't love them, or that your love is conditional. And part of that is you're softening the ground for work that the Lord can do. And I think, you know, I really — I've been meditating on this idea of the aroma of Christ, and this idea that when the Holy Spirit is inside of us, the fruit of the Spirit really draws people. And I think God can do work in people's hearts even before we communicate the words. And while I'm a big believer in preaching the words, often with parents and grandparents, the first thing is we need to make sure we're solidifying the relational bonds, because I think that's one of the ways that the enemy can set us apart, disconnect us. So that would be my first point. The other thing is we need to recognize that what they believe is not simply a matter of logic and persuasion. There is a spiritual reality going on. I already quoted 2 Corinthians 4:4 — the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers. So what we're dealing with is spiritual blindness. And all my apologetic arguments and all my persuasion is not enough if they are spiritually blind. And that is why prayer is not just this nice Christian activity that we do, or a warmup to the real work — prayer is essential. So I would say start with engaging, building the relational bond and praying in a new way. And praying in a way — gather your friends, maybe it's time for fasting and prayer — because God's got to do something supernaturally for my words to matter at all. And so I would start with those two places. And then pray also that God would bring about circumstances and people around them that could reintroduce them to Jesus. Because I would suggest that in most cases... the parents or the grandparents are not going to be the one that God uses to bring Jesus back to them. And so it's kind of this surrender there.

CHIP: Well, I saw the process when I was doing some training in Germany. But I never will forget — and our new president, he's not new anymore, he's been with us three years — Mike and I were there together, and you broke up into groups, into regions, different regions of the world. And he said, "we're going to pray now." And, you know, I thought, yeah, okay. So, you know, we knelt down and got in circles and we started to pray. Well, you know, I was used to how other Christians pray, you know, "Lord, you know, help us," blah, blah, blah. Well, you know, I mean, we're 45 minutes into it. We're an hour into it. And I'm listening to young people plead with God, intercede, fasting, crying out. There was a level of passion and intensity because they had been there. They had been lost. They had been blind. And I want to say something as a pastor and as a parent, as a grandparent — this is going to be hard for some of you to hear. Some of the issue is not with your kids. Some of the issue is with you. You need to ask yourself, are you living an authentic life? Is church something you just go to? Are you in God's Word? Are you... passionate? Do you want your life to work out? Are you a consumer, or are you the kind of Christian that really reveals Christ? And I don't mean this as some big, you know, guilt trip. I'm just saying you can't change other people, but you can look into your own heart, your own life and say, "God, start with me. Take away the pain, the hurt, the calluses, the rejection, the part where you want to pay them back." All those tapes about, you know, "they're so ungrateful, they don't remember all the things I did for them, you know, I paid for the college, I did this, I made these sacrifices" — all that may be true, but those may be the very... and some of that is self-righteousness, and some of it is you wanted good, moral, nice kids — that maybe the living Christ needs to be living more deeply in your heart and your life, and you begin to say, "oh God, oh God, I long for my child or my grandchild to fully, completely return to you, or maybe to really meet you for the first time." But here's where I want to start: whatever I need to see, whatever I need to address in my own life, whatever sin, whatever perspective — "oh God, speak and work in me first that I might be a tool in your hands to reach my son, my daughter, or one of my grandkids." And I don't mean that harshly. I've been around this for a long time, Aaron, and I've seen where the transformation occurs. I have multiple friends whose kids are in alternative lifestyles. And the ones who have seen — and sometimes it's been a decade, the one that's been two decades — he just wouldn't stop loving his daughter. And, yes, she got married to another woman. They adopted kids. And then, over time — when you sow to the flesh, you do reap corruption — and those relationships break down, and there's times of pain, and the people they come back to are ones that they can respect and who've loved them. He never changed his view of theology. There were always clear boundaries, but he wouldn't stop loving her. And in the midst of the pain, the breakup, the relationship, the challenges with the kids, she turned to come to him to say, "Dad, I need your help." And he was there. And he just kept building bridges, and honestly received a lot of rejection along the way — not only from her, but from brothers and sisters and other people who said, "hey, you know, you can't take that stance, you just need to change your theology." And yet people know, down deep in their heart, who they can trust. And that's built on what you've talked about. And that's been the whole process of not only the book, but now the new video and small group resource — to help parents, grandparents, and pastors really learn there is a new way to reach people. And it's not telling them a bunch of facts of what they need to believe.

AARON: Yeah. Exactly nailed the heart of this. And then, yeah, there are times to talk. But what we teach in the book is you go from these relational, loving, friendship conversations — which Jesus modeled, by the way, right? Jesus was a friend of sinners. Like, that was one of the great accusations against Jesus. And so he demonstrated that you can love people and not affirm the sin in their life, which is what he did. But then, how do I engage in spiritual conversations that serve as a bridge to Jesus? And how do I take the everyday things of life that we wrestle with, that we have questions about, and ask questions and create an environment where people can have these conversations? And we've seen that over and over — it opens people's hearts to Jesus.

CHIP: Give me a couple of examples of that, because, you know, I've watched you do this — it's so natural, it's so close to you. But let's say I want to sit down with one of my grandchildren, and they know where I'm coming from, and they're kind of waiting for the big religious things. What kind of questions? I mean, the average grandparent, and many parents — it's not like they're living on social media, or they're certainly not living on the same sites that their teenagers or young adults are. So what kind of questions, what kind of issues do you find are almost universal, whether it's Moscow or Brazil or New York City or, you know, rural town Iowa? The youth culture is pretty much the same everywhere because of what's happened with media and especially social media. So help — kind of, a parent, or maybe pastor — how do you start these conversations? What kind of things do you talk about?

AARON: Yeah, well, I would say some of the big topics that are relevant are questions of identity and self-worth, questions of... you know, there's a real desire for activism of some variety. And, of course, it's based on — activism and social justice is based on moral codes of making wrong things right, and that the world is broken and we need to do something about it. Or there's a deep desire for belonging and community. All these topics — identity, self-worth, justice, belonging and community — I mean, the gospel speaks to these things profoundly. Are the kinds of things that young people care about, that they're wrestling with. And so, to have open-ended questions about "where do you find your identity, your self-worth," or "in a world that is so broken, where do you get your hope from? Can we fix all of this?" Or "why is it that we desire deep, intimate relationships, and yet every one of us experiences relational brokenness — what is that about?" And sit in that and wrestle with that. Don't necessarily come with all the answers. In fact, be honest that some of these questions are hard and we wrestle with them too. And the idea is create an environment, not where you need to convince them that you're right and that you've got all the answers, but rather create an environment where they can pursue truth. It's a very different thing. And that's what I think people are hungry for. And it's much more conducive for a healthy, open conversation.

CHIP: Okay, we're going to do something I've never done before. And I hope people will listen to more than the next sentence, because I could get in a lot of trouble here. But I'd like to do something I've never done — I'd like to role play, just for a minute. Because what you're giving to me are the concepts, and you're giving me the categories. But I've been with you, and, you know, and I've learned from you, is — okay, I want to, I'm going to go with — I'm... I'm 24 years old. I've abandoned the faith. I'm in a homosexual lifestyle. I'm, you know, I get where my parents are coming from. They're kind of narrow. They believe that stuff. They've hooked their Jesus to big groups and all kind of stuff. I've pretty much rejected all of that. You know, I really just think that, you know, my truth is my truth. And I, you know, I'm working, finding a life of meaning on my own. And so I'm at a coffee shop, and by now I have a few symbols of the alternative lifestyle, whatever you think they are. And you walk in, and maybe I'm involved in a big justice cause, and we're rallying — we're going to make a difference in the world because the world's totally messed up. And you meet me. So how do you approach me? What kind of questions? Where do you go?

AARON: Well, again, first, it depends how well I know you. But my first thing is like, "tell me how you doing? How's life? What's — what are you? What's going on in your world?" And then I can go further and just start to ask questions about the things that you care about. You know, if you've been involved in a protest — like, okay, what are you doing? What is the protest? What are you hoping to accomplish? How did you get involved in that? Help me understand your journey — you didn't arrive at these views just suddenly, it came through a journey. Give me some concept, I want to understand your view. And then I want to find things that I can affirm — "what I really respect about you, I respect that you see that the world is broken, and I want you to know I'm with you, I see it too. But I respect that you're not just standing by, you're not just kind of going about your life, you want to do something about it, and I respect that. And I want you to know that I'm in agreement with you that this world is broken and we've got to do something about it." And then I can begin to challenge or ask some questions, like, you know, "do you think that there's a political solution to what's wrong in the world? Do you think that if we get the right politics or the right education, we can fix our problems?" And then ask some questions around that. And inevitably, you know, if they're honest, they're going to say, "well, I don't know, I think that that might not be enough." And you're like, "yeah, I think there's something deeper. There's a — there's a — there's something in my heart, there's a corruption, there's a — there's a brokenness personally that seems to need to be fixed so that I can be at peace with others" — and asking questions around that. So, so how can I find points of connection? How can I affirm the good I see in their life? Or how can I ask them about other things in their life? Like, you know, they're a human being, they've got struggles and brokenness. You know, maybe they've got a broken relationship, or maybe someone close to them has been diagnosed with cancer, or maybe they're struggling with some mental health issues. Offer to pray — "you know, can I pray for you?" And even if they're not religious, they're not likely to reject it. They're going to say, "man, I know that means you care." And then praying for people for their felt needs. So just how do I have natural conversations, not feeling the need to rush into things, but to draw out who they are, the deeper things, the brokenness that they experience, and to meet them in those places. But it takes curiosity, it takes asking good questions and listening, it takes patience. It also is like... and trusting the Holy Spirit to do the work that the Holy Spirit will do, and not trying to be the hero. Just, "God, what do you want me to do in this moment?" And trusting that he will lead the conversation where he wants to lead. If you kind of come in with that approach, rather than "I got to get my answers out, I got to get my gospel script out," rather just relaxing and trying to understand the person — it's a very different posture. So I hope that was specific enough.

CHIP: Yeah. And I think a lot of people listening right now will feel like, "gosh, that feels like I'm compromising. That feels like I'm not standing up for the truth. That feels like I'm not being the kind of Christian I need to be." And, you know, one of the things — you know, I think both in your book and then in the small group resource — you give us some snapshots of Jesus through a little bit different lens. We tend to put Jesus inside the church, inside our lens. And in the small group resource, you help us see that Jesus is talking with an immoral woman in a very private place. You help us understand that he's with a group of people that are in a pretty big party that are... whose lifestyles are way, way out there, and he's being accused of a lot of things. And he does — I forget, someone listed the number of questions in the New Testament that Jesus asks, and I mean, it's like 70 to 1, how many answers that he gives. He constantly is helping people come to conclusions, because at the end of the day, there really is a huge inconsistency. But purpose? Loneliness, identity, hurts, wounds — we all have them. They're just living in a different world, and they've been given a set of answers that fix it short-term and then bring a lot of pain. Tell us a little bit about how, as you have developed the small group resource — I know we worked on this together, and then your team filmed this because you realize you can't keep flying around to all these churches and doing these seminars — how has that gone? How has it been received? What are the strengths? What are the minuses? What do you say to that person who says, "you know what? I guess I'm willing to try anything right now, my approach isn't working, I'm really open" — and maybe not just for my own kids, but for the young people in our church, and we can't keep doing the same things in church and seeing the same negative results. I'm talking to one of those people, say, "you know what, I'm open. If there's a different way to reach them, help us understand what's been effective," and maybe what suggestions you've learned.

AARON: I think that this, I mean, it's been incredibly effective. We've seen just incredible feedback, many testimonies of how it's had impact in people's lives. I think, you know, in the end, the biblical principles are not that they're not all that revolutionary — they're just, how do I apply biblical principles to our current cultural moment? Which is really what it's about. And it's also — sometimes we've relegated evangelism to a certain kind of person with a certain kind of personality, and if I don't really fit that personality, then I guess it's not for me. And so this is designed to create a kind of process that you can follow that's biblically grounded that really anyone can apply. Because, you know, you don't have to be this crazy extroverted person, or someone that knows all the apologetic answers. The question is, can you be a good friend? Can you follow the example of Jesus by becoming a friend of sinners? Can you intentionally pursue people in your sphere of influence that today are not following Jesus and engage in spiritual conversations, which is just an extension of a meaningful friendship? If you have meaningful friendships with people, you're going to ask more than just the weather and sports — you're going to get into deeper things because you care. And then, if I'm really sharing my life with someone, they're going to know that I love Jesus, that he changed my life, that it's because of him that I have peace in this broken world. And so, how can I do this in a way that's intentional — still requires courage and boldness and faith — but it makes sense in the context, and it connects with people who probably, if my only way of engaging them is to pull out a gospel script or invite them to church — which are all, those are fine, those are good things to do — but there's a big segment of people, particularly younger people, that just won't connect with that. And so this is relational, but yes, it's bold too, because Jesus is the answer and we need to preach Christ and him crucified. But it's doing it in a way that people can understand. And if I could just make the last point — the whole heart of this is, how do I communicate Jesus in a relevant way? And relevance does not mean watering it down. Relevance does not mean compromising theologically or morally. Relevance is about communicating in a way that people will understand. And then, of course, they have to make their own choices. But I think that's the distinction — we're trying to make Jesus accessible so they can understand who he is. And again, people then have to make their choices from there. I think one of the observations that some really smart apologists have made — I think of Sean McDowell and others that... working with young people all the time, teaching at Biola, a professor there — you know, he just said, you know, in times past, you could start, because there was a common understanding, you could start with the truth and then explain grace. And today, we need to flip that. You have to start with grace and help people see and understand. Back then, you had to win an argument. Now you need to win a hearing. Your life and your care and your concern — and it's not either/or, it's just a little bit different order.

CHIP: Well, okay, let's jump to a little bit different, more controversial side of things.

AARON: Can I just add to that grace and truth thing? I think that's exactly right. I also think that the flip is, in the past, you had to believe before you could belong.

CHIP: Yes.

AARON: And maybe even behave before you believe, before you belong. And I think today we want to create spaces where people can belong before they believe. That's what our whole Bible study for the non-religious is about — is create a space for community that they long for even before they believe. So I think that we're kind of — we're not saying that belief doesn't matter, we're not saying that truth doesn't matter, we're just saying that sometimes you have to approach it in a different way. And that means inviting people over for dinner. And even if you don't share the gospel or tell your testimony, it's a wonderful thing. It's meeting for coffee. It's going in with five questions to say, "you know, I read all about this loneliness epidemic, how are your friends dealing with all of that, what could I do to support them?"

CHIP: And I will say one thing that you really hit on that I have found personally have been — and, you know, like I'm an old white guy, okay, so I mean, there's no getting around it — and so when I'm connecting with people that are maybe really far from God and they see me, just like everyone sort of makes preconceived ideas about you — I'm thinking building a bridge for me might be a little bit harder than other people. But as I just sought to be compassionate and look people in the eye and ask a few questions — and I can't help my eyes kind of tearing up when I hear some of the brokenness — I have done things in coffee shops or street corners, or with homeless people, because they find themselves in tragic situations, and put their hand on their shoulder and say, "would you be okay — I'm a follower of Jesus, he cares about you, could I pray for you?" One out of a hundred times, someone's looked at me and said, "no way." I mean, the response to a genuine, loving moment — and by the way, I don't pray the gospel out loud, so I make sure they get it — I want them to experience the compassion, the love of God, and that He cares, and that He would reveal Himself to them. And then, often, when appropriate, with men, usually not with women, but the physical touch — people who are so isolated and hurting, we got to remember the depth of their soul, to get a hug from someone in an appropriate way, or to meet a need right then: "hey, why don't we go inside and let me buy you a meal?" Or, "you know, I've got some friends that might be able to help you, you talked about you need some work, whatever that is." Those practical things that build bridges that say, I don't just care — you know, 1 John 3:18 says, let us not love with word or tongue, but in deed and truth. We actually do something to help them. I think that's a really important part of this. I want to shift gears, because all this sounds kind of great in general, and then the politics comes up, gender comes up, homosexuality comes up. You mentioned the name of a political figure on the left or on the right. What I loved most about the book, and I know you cover it in the small group resource — you actually talk about diving deep into those things in a way that doesn't alienate, because you can't get around them in our world. I mean, you can't have a conversation where those things immediately polarize and divide. So give us a little insight about how do you do that? "I'm at work, I work with a lot of people that have a very different view of life and God, I want to reach them, especially younger people" — and these are the kind of things that are absolute discussion stoppers and relationship stoppers. How do you talk about these issues in a way that doesn't just kill the relationship?

AARON: Yeah. Well, it goes back to something you said earlier, Chip, which is that I think it starts with me. And, have I got my priorities right? And the core here is that we don't make secondary things primary — which is, like, the goal is for people to meet Jesus. And when they meet Jesus, and they encounter the beauty of who he is — it's like that old hymn, you know, "look unto Jesus, look full unto his face, and the things of this earth will grow strangely dim." When you meet Jesus, everything else fades away. And so what happens, though, is when we take secondary things — like our political ideology, or even morality, which is a downstream impact of when I encounter Jesus and I trust him, then I submit myself to him — primary, and I put them in front of Jesus, I actually make it harder for people to see Jesus. And so the challenge is for me: am I pointing people to Jesus, or am I pointing them to something secondary that I've elevated? And so, just not taking the bait, not looking to argue at that superficial level, but get deeper — peace, it's about justice, it's about order in the world, it's about "how do I respond to the brokenness?" Well, the gospel speaks clearly to those things. Sexuality ultimately is about belonging, intimacy, love, relationships — deep, meaningful things. So rather than arguing at the superficial level, let's find places of connection at the deeper level, and then point to how Jesus answers those things. And so I think it's reframing it that way.

CHIP: Yeah, I've witnessed this. Could you share a story of someone that, you know, with regard to their morality, their politics, all the kind of things that the average person would say, "there is no way that person's ever going to respond to Jesus" — could you tell us a story? In fact, I've read just a couple recently as I, you know, I get your email and things — how this happens in someone's life. Maybe, you know, we've talked about concepts that provide truth and a skeleton and some general direction, but maybe put some clothes on it. Maybe tell me a story that I could say, "oh, so..." And don't, you know, I don't want you to, you know, reveal anything about a specific person that would, you know, not be appropriate, but whatever you're free to share, that would really be helpful to people.

AARON: Yeah, I mean, I have so many. I remember, you know, I live in Minneapolis, so we've had a lot of political unrest over the years here, which, of course, that brings all sorts of challenges, but it also brings opportunities. And so when these challenges arise, our team tends to go and find places where we can connect with people. And I remember one time connecting with a couple. They looked, you know, as you know, they were very alternative dress, very — they kind of had the look of a very particular kind of political perspective, and the kind of perspective that often would see Christians as their enemy. And we went and talked to them, sat down and just had a conversation about why they were there and why their hearts were broken over this. And we just began to talk about the brokenness of the world. And I've already alluded to it, which is like, you know, "we see all this brokenness, but do you think that we're going to solve it with politics?" And then inevitably they're like, "no." And then you can go deeper, and you're like, "you talk about my own brokenness, the brokenness of the world, but what about my brokenness, or the brokenness of my family?" And, you know, we all desire these intimate relationships — these are the conversations we're having. But why is it that we all experience relational brokenness? And asking questions — "do you think there's someone that will never hurt you or disappoint you?" And they begin to open up and say, "you know, I've experienced betrayal, I've experienced heartbreak." And then I can share, you know, I believe that God sees that, he sees your pain, he sees the cry of your heart, and he cries with you, and that he sent Jesus to bring healing, to bring forgiveness, to bring reconciliation, which is what we all require. And that actually Jesus is the answer to what you're looking for. So, you know, at a political rally, I can talk about Jesus, because he's the source to the greater brokenness, to the fundamental brokenness that we face. But I have so many other examples. I've met with a guy — he was gay. We connected with him at an outreach. And he told me that he had a small business, he was an artist. And so the thing is, even though the world tells you that their sexuality is their primary identity, it's not — people have all sorts of things that are going on in their life. And I don't have to just connect in that space. So I have a little bit of a business background. I said, "hey, let's meet, and let me help you walk through your business plan." And so we met for coffee, and we began to talk about his business, and we were talking various practical things. And then eventually we moved to some topics — some spiritual topics, which is identity and purpose, which are critical to the whole sexuality topic. And I talked about, "hey, you're starting this business, and starting a small business is hard, most fail, and you need to root yourself in an identity that won't be shaken by the storms that you're going to face. You need something that you can hold on to. Because if you put your identity in something that can be taken from you, then you're vulnerable to circumstances." And I shared how, for me, my identity was found in the unconditional love of God, that I was a child of God, and that that identity could not be taken from me. And I had a conversation with this guy using business — yeah, he was gay, but we talked about business that I could connect to identity and where we find our identity. So conversations like that we can have all the time, and we have many conversations like that. Well, it takes time and it takes patience, and I think it's a long play that I think what we miss.

CHIP: And, you know, I happen to know a little bit about that story, because you and I have talked before. And what you just described didn't happen the very first time you met him. I mean, you sat down in a circle while all the things were going on. You ask him why they were there. You're motivated — "gosh, you know, you seem really, really angry about some things" — and you listen to all their anger and why, and which politicians they hated and what was happening in the world — completely broken. And then you ask him some why questions, which led to some reoccurring relationships that built the kind of safety that you're talking about. And so I think for some of us, it just realizes we got to get out of our Christian cocoon and out of "I go to church on this day, I live my life over here." If you want to see people know Jesus, you have to go where they are. You have to make time, taken away from other things. And for some of you, that's your own kids. And because they've rejected you, you're living in hurt — "well, they rejected me." Well, and it's passive aggressive, and now you're rejecting them by not being engaged — "well, I'm not going to go to that, and I'm not going to be involved in that." And guess what? The enemy is winning when that's your attitude. And it takes tremendous humility to grasp — hey, I may be right, but being right is not as important right now as having the right attitude and developing the right relationship as a bridge, with absolutely no compromise to what I believe about Scripture, about Jesus, about salvation. And it will require a cost. And I would just say to those listening: if you really care deeply about your own children and grandchildren, and if you are concerned about the world, and maybe especially America, since we're living here, and the movement that you see — the change doesn't happen by someone coming on a white horse. Now, that will happen one day when the Lord returns. But it's going to happen one person at a time, one small group, one little group of friends, one community at a time, who says, "we refuse to continue to live the way we're living." We must build relationships. It makes us uncomfortable. We don't know exactly how to do it, but we can't not do it. And I just want to say that you guys are modeling that. And I tell people this, Aaron — I think you are modeling that here and around the world more effectively than anyone I know. I'm not saying there's other people that aren't doing it as well, and great things happening — just, in my personal experience, if anyone wanted to know how to reach the next generation, what you all actually do, not just talk about, is... the model that I see in the New Testament. In fact, the one thing you said — it was so interesting, when I watched your process, and, you know, I'm sort of a synthesizer, and so, you know, I organized it in my mind, and, you know, this is how you could communicate it and codify it, and here's how we would write about it — but I remember thinking, "you guys just are doing what Jesus did, and you are seeing the same results that Jesus had." And the Bible's really clear — not wishy-washy love, but love: absolute, sacrificial, costly, other-centered, desperate prayer, fervent prayer — love never fails. And that's the hope that we have. And the resource that you all put together, along with the book, the new small group resource — I think Dave will tell everyone about how they can get that. Any final thoughts, as we wrap things up here, in terms of talking to that — especially — my heart goes out — your conversations are, you know, a little different age group. If I had $100 for every parent or grandparent that I've talked to that are shaking their head and in tears — "I don't get it, I don't know what happened, as far as I knew we were sincere, we were intentional, we did everything right, how did we end up here" — I would be a very, very, very rich person. And those people are hurting, Aaron.

AARON: Yeah, I know. And a lot of them are a part of who listen in or do studies with Living on the Edge.

CHIP: Could you give them just a word of hope as we wrap things up?

AARON: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I guess I would say that God sees your heart, and he sees your tears, and he knows the grief, the confusion, the disappointment, and even the questions you've wrestled with, maybe asking yourself, "did I fail? Did I do something wrong?" I mean, these are real questions, and you're not alone in asking them. But I guess I want to encourage you with this: your child's story is not over, and God has not stopped working. Even when you don't see it, he is pursuing. I think that's what gives me so much hope, is that God loves your child more than you love your child. And he left the 99 to go after the one, and he continues to do that. And God is active and moving in the world. I can say it, I can testify it — we are seeing young Christian leaders raised up, fueling grassroots movement, reaching people like your kids right now. That they are with them in the clubs, the cafes, the universities, the music festivals, the spaces where they are, befriending them and sharing Jesus. And we are seeing God moving. And so I just want you to know, God is on the move. He is raising up a new generation of radical young people. And so, again, the encouragement here is we are just one part of what God is doing. You are one part of what God is doing. You don't have to hold it all together. It doesn't depend entirely on you. Do your part — you know, get on your knees and cry out to God, pursue your child, meet them on their turf, and respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. But ultimately, God is doing the work. And he is on the move. And so our hope is not in ourselves. It's not in our perfect parenting. It's not in having all the right answers. Our hope is in Jesus. And that's what gives me confidence.

CHIP: Amen. Thank you, Aaron.
CHIP: Well, thanks so much, Dave. We do have a really special guest and a very close friend. And Aaron, tell us a little bit about your journey, just for those that may not be familiar with you or our relationship.

AARON: Chip, it's just an honor to be on this call with you and to talk with you and just to serve with you. And I've always been so grateful for you and the influence you've had in my life. You know, like I always considered you a mentor even before I knew you. And so you've had a big influence on my life. And yeah, so I grew up as a missionary kid in Amsterdam. And you've met my parents and they were missionaries in Amsterdam. They had a heart to reach young people that wouldn't walk into a church, which if you consider a city like Amsterdam, that's pretty much all young people. And they see these big, beautiful cathedrals that are often closed on Sunday and they're museums. And so many people, they just view the church as a tradition of the past, not relevant to my life. And you find that a lot of people living in this secular culture, for some of them, religious ideas, it's just kind of they're apathetic to it. It doesn't really... don't think about it all that much. Some are even cynical or hostile, and yet many are very... to spirituality of various kinds. And there's all kinds of spiritual expressions that people draw to. And so in that environment, I just saw a secular culture where people who might not walk into a church on a Sunday, and yet we're still hungry for the very things that Jesus brings. And so that idea of how do we bring the gospel, which is as relevant today, to a culture that often thinks it's not. And that was the environment I grew up in as a kid, got to see God move and change lives. And it kind of ruined me in a really good way because I saw, you know, that Jesus is real and he changed lives. And so, yeah, that was the context that then led me to lead this mission called Steiger that's mobilizing followers of Jesus to reach young people who would not walk into a church.

CHIP: So now you have teams that are reaching young people. How many cities around the world now?

AARON: It's over 275 cities, which is wild because when you were with us a few years ago, it was about 90. And so we've just seen tremendous growth over the last few years, an explosion of the move of God reaching young people around the world.

CHIP: Well, as we now say that and say, well, there's spiritual hunger and God's really, really working, I'm going to talk to parents and grandparents who are sitting in a little bit different situation, who — their kids went to a Christian school. They went to youth group. They sat around the table. Some of them did little family devotions. They either went away to college or there was a gradual drift. They're late teenagers. They're middle 20s. They're some in early 30s now. They want nothing to do with God, often nothing to do with their parents. Some have not only drifted from the faith, some have rejected, some have deconstructed. At what point — you know, we've heard the stats for quite a while — what point, from your perspective, because you've come up through it all, more than a cultural trend, you saw this as a genuine crisis?

AARON: Yeah. Well, you know, like you, Chip, I get the opportunity to preach at churches and conferences and events all over the world, including here in the U.S. And after I preach, I would have a line of parents and grandparents coming to talk to me, tears in their eyes, talking about their young adult child. And honestly, the volume and consistency of their story, most now seeming to be involved in LGBTQ as well. And just all of that, there was just so much pain and so much heartache and also a sense of not knowing what to do that God began to break my heart for these parents and grandparents and just saying, God, we got to serve them. We got to equip them. And so this went from statistics and trends to something deeply personal for me because of the stories that I was hearing from these parents and grandparents.

CHIP: Well, let me pause for a moment here, and I want you to... invite a parent or grandparent who feels like, you know, I don't think there's any hope. They won't talk to me, or, you know, I don't bring up religion anymore at all. I can't even talk about Jesus and I don't get it. I don't understand. Not saying that their sons and daughters who've drifted or are deconstructing are right. But could you, like, invite them to sit down at a table just with you and me, maybe picture a cup of coffee, and would you help them understand how their kids and grandkids are thinking, how they view the world that is so different than their parents, so different than their grandparents, and so different from the, you know, go to church, be a good person, don't get anybody pregnant, don't get pregnant, don't get on drugs, don't drink alcohol, and be a good, nice person — that somehow with the algorithms and all the things that have happened in social media and the culture caused this break between their view of Jesus, Christianity, and their parents. Help that parent or grandparent understand. And by the way, if you're a parent or grandparent and you're thinking, oh, please speak — could I ask you to lean back right now? Some of this... very painful. Some of you have dealt with a lot of anger, others with a lot of guilt. Our goal here is we got to build some bridges. And to do that, we need to step back a little bit and discover what they're feeling, how they're thinking — not saying it's always right or true by any means. But if you don't understand that... prayer that I pray often by St. Francis, where he says, Lord, grant that I may seek to understand more than to be understood. Seek that I may love more than to be loved. That idea of empathy. Help us. What do you hear from these kids? I mean, you meet them on the street. You've met them at LGBT rallies. You've met them in places that most Christians never go. And you hear their stories. Help that parent or grandparent.

AARON: You nailed it, which is, I think, so often in this context, we're looking to tell people the answer rather than first to understand. And I actually think in order to really communicate Jesus effectively, we need to know what they're thinking, what's influencing them. And so we live in a culture, this generation, that is quite distinct from a few generations ago. And the voices and influences that's shaping how they see the world, essentially, the main — like, you know, 2 Corinthians 4:4 says, the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers. The God of this age is what I would describe as secular humanism. And it's this idea that God has been replaced. And I am at the center. I'm God. And there's no outside authority that can tell me how to live my life. It's the era of my truth, and all identity, purpose and morality is self-constructed. You know, in the Christian worldview, we discover those things because God designed those things. In the secular world, I design it. I develop it. I decide who I am. I decide what's right and wrong. I decide the purpose for my life. And it sounds liberating. It sounds like freedom, but the truth is this worldview is actually quite destructive. It's like poison wrapped in bubble gum. It looks all sweet and shiny on the outside, but it's actually destroying people. It's like it says in Proverbs 16:25, there's a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death. And so what we have is this culture that's telling people: it's all about you. There are no rules. The rules are fake. Just do what you want. Do what makes you feel good. And so what we have, instead of freedom, we're finding bondage. We have a culture that is confused, that's sexually broken, lonely, anxious, depressed. This is the felt need of our culture. And what's interesting is secular culture does not deny those things. They just don't have a good answer to them. So this is all that's going on. And there's so much confusion. Like, take the topic of love — you know, we all, of course, we have this innate desire for love and intimacy. It's how God wired us. But our culture is incredibly confused about love. Because on one hand, you have hookup culture, where sex is basically just a physical act for pleasure, and apart from consent, there's no moral guidance. And so, just do what makes you happy — you got that on one side. And then on the other side, in the same breath, we're looking for the one that will complete us, that will satisfy all our needs and desires, that person that will fill the emptiness. And so you got these two extremes that people believe about love. No wonder we're confused. No wonder we're broken. And so I think the response to all of this shouldn't be, what's wrong with you? How dumb could you be? But rather it should be, like Jesus, which is to have compassion on those that are confused — which is really what I would say that's the state of our culture is, we're confused. And so this is the air that people are breathing today. And then you add to that a general skepticism towards authority and towards, like, religious institutions. And so even though Jesus has the answers to what they are looking for, they're not looking to the church. Like, think about it — Jesus brings truth to the confused. He brings healing to the sexually broken. He brings the ultimate relationship with the creator restored, and with the church. And he brings peace that transcends understanding. We have the answers to the cry of this generation, but they're not looking to the church. So part of it is just recognizing the cultural moment that we're in. And how do we now communicate Jesus in that context?

CHIP: And that's what I want to talk about, because I think when I was with your team, and as we built time together, one of the reasons that we partnered together to develop the book, Not Beyond Reach, is what I saw was — maybe this is part of my giftedness — is I saw that you all literally had a very clear process that you walked people through, that you were so close to it, you almost didn't see it. I mean, but it was so clear. And I thought, oh, my — first of all, they go where lost people go. Second, they don't judge them. They ask questions and they listen. Third, you all would have spiritual conversations that everyone has — loneliness, and what's life all about, and what's your purpose — with no judgment, and often with a bottle of water or a meal. And then you would have Bible studies for non-Christians. You could ask anything, no pushing. And yet what you did is you built safety and then you ask them questions. Honestly, in their confusion, they couldn't really answer, but they felt loved and it was safe. And they were now open to do something they hadn't done before. Instead of packaging Jesus with religion, or "this is what my parents believe," or "this is connected to some political figure or some building" — all of a sudden, you are introducing them to the Jesus of the New Testament in a very safe way. But you built a lot of bridges. And then you had that gospel conversation. You let them understand that the root issue is sin for all of us, that there is a Savior, there is hope. And so, you know, that book was to codify that. And by the way, it's had huge impact. Let me say this: Mary's 22 years old. She doesn't talk to her parents anymore. She's in an alternative lifestyle. She does, you know, just mild — smokes some weed. Has her own life, is pretty disengaged from her parents, and her parents feel like, "I just can't get through to Mary anymore." Or you can make it George, who's 24. You're sitting down with them, and you've met them at a coffee shop. They have some alternative sort of symbols around that let you know, "this is my new identity." Would you help a parent... listen to you sit down and could you just have a conversation with that person? Maybe you notice — I often do this when you notice a tattoo that you know has some symbolism, and I will often say something, "wow, that's an interesting tattoo, tell me a little bit about that" — which is a completely different approach than "why'd you get that." So help that parent understand what you actually say. Because I want to talk about a resource that we have for them, but I think they need to hear, okay, it's confusing, the world's messed up, but they're living in pain. How do you go about connecting with this person that would model for them how they could go about doing it?

AARON: Yeah. Well, I think the complexity here is distinct when it comes to parents and grandparents, because the dynamic can get a little more emotional. It can get a little more — there's more going on. And so one of the things I would say is there is this tendency to want to rush in with the answers, and "here, look at this article," or, you know, "the Bible says this," and kind of come in hot with your answers. And I think, obviously, the truth is truth and people need to hear the truth. But I think when it comes to kids, parents and grandparents interacting with their kids, often I think that the key is that you need to be relationally present in their life. What the enemy wants to do is to divide and to disconnect and isolate. And I think what you need to do is, first and foremost, show them with your actions that even if you don't agree with their lifestyle, even if you don't agree with their choices, you love them, and nothing is going to change that. And you will pursue them and meet them on their turf. And part of what you're doing is you're challenging some lies that they believe — that they're going to be rejected, that you don't love them, or that your love is conditional. And part of that is you're softening the ground for work that the Lord can do. And I think, you know, I really — I've been meditating on this idea of the aroma of Christ, and this idea that when the Holy Spirit is inside of us, the fruit of the Spirit really draws people. And I think God can do work in people's hearts even before we communicate the words. And while I'm a big believer in preaching the words, often with parents and grandparents, the first thing is we need to make sure we're solidifying the relational bonds, because I think that's one of the ways that the enemy can set us apart, disconnect us. So that would be my first point. The other thing is we need to recognize that what they believe is not simply a matter of logic and persuasion. There is a spiritual reality going on. I already quoted 2 Corinthians 4:4 — the God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers. So what we're dealing with is spiritual blindness. And all my apologetic arguments and all my persuasion is not enough if they are spiritually blind. And that is why prayer is not just this nice Christian activity that we do, or a warmup to the real work — prayer is essential. So I would say start with engaging, building the relational bond and praying in a new way. And praying in a way — gather your friends, maybe it's time for fasting and prayer — because God's got to do something supernaturally for my words to matter at all. And so I would start with those two places. And then pray also that God would bring about circumstances and people around them that could reintroduce them to Jesus. Because I would suggest that in most cases... the parents or the grandparents are not going to be the one that God uses to bring Jesus back to them. And so it's kind of this surrender there.

CHIP: Well, I saw the process when I was doing some training in Germany. But I never will forget — and our new president, he's not new anymore, he's been with us three years — Mike and I were there together, and you broke up into groups, into regions, different regions of the world. And he said, "we're going to pray now." And, you know, I thought, yeah, okay. So, you know, we knelt down and got in circles and we started to pray. Well, you know, I was used to how other Christians pray, you know, "Lord, you know, help us," blah, blah, blah. Well, you know, I mean, we're 45 minutes into it. We're an hour into it. And I'm listening to young people plead with God, intercede, fasting, crying out. There was a level of passion and intensity because they had been there. They had been lost. They had been blind. And I want to say something as a pastor and as a parent, as a grandparent — this is going to be hard for some of you to hear. Some of the issue is not with your kids. Some of the issue is with you. You need to ask yourself, are you living an authentic life? Is church something you just go to? Are you in God's Word? Are you... passionate? Do you want your life to work out? Are you a consumer, or are you the kind of Christian that really reveals Christ? And I don't mean this as some big, you know, guilt trip. I'm just saying you can't change other people, but you can look into your own heart, your own life and say, "God, start with me. Take away the pain, the hurt, the calluses, the rejection, the part where you want to pay them back." All those tapes about, you know, "they're so ungrateful, they don't remember all the things I did for them, you know, I paid for the college, I did this, I made these sacrifices" — all that may be true, but those may be the very... and some of that is self-righteousness, and some of it is you wanted good, moral, nice kids — that maybe the living Christ needs to be living more deeply in your heart and your life, and you begin to say, "oh God, oh God, I long for my child or my grandchild to fully, completely return to you, or maybe to really meet you for the first time." But here's where I want to start: whatever I need to see, whatever I need to address in my own life, whatever sin, whatever perspective — "oh God, speak and work in me first that I might be a tool in your hands to reach my son, my daughter, or one of my grandkids." And I don't mean that harshly. I've been around this for a long time, Aaron, and I've seen where the transformation occurs. I have multiple friends whose kids are in alternative lifestyles. And the ones who have seen — and sometimes it's been a decade, the one that's been two decades — he just wouldn't stop loving his daughter. And, yes, she got married to another woman. They adopted kids. And then, over time — when you sow to the flesh, you do reap corruption — and those relationships break down, and there's times of pain, and the people they come back to are ones that they can respect and who've loved them. He never changed his view of theology. There were always clear boundaries, but he wouldn't stop loving her. And in the midst of the pain, the breakup, the relationship, the challenges with the kids, she turned to come to him to say, "Dad, I need your help." And he was there. And he just kept building bridges, and honestly received a lot of rejection along the way — not only from her, but from brothers and sisters and other people who said, "hey, you know, you can't take that stance, you just need to change your theology." And yet people know, down deep in their heart, who they can trust. And that's built on what you've talked about. And that's been the whole process of not only the book, but now the new video and small group resource — to help parents, grandparents, and pastors really learn there is a new way to reach people. And it's not telling them a bunch of facts of what they need to believe.

AARON: Yeah. Exactly nailed the heart of this. And then, yeah, there are times to talk. But what we teach in the book is you go from these relational, loving, friendship conversations — which Jesus modeled, by the way, right? Jesus was a friend of sinners. Like, that was one of the great accusations against Jesus. And so he demonstrated that you can love people and not affirm the sin in their life, which is what he did. But then, how do I engage in spiritual conversations that serve as a bridge to Jesus? And how do I take the everyday things of life that we wrestle with, that we have questions about, and ask questions and create an environment where people can have these conversations? And we've seen that over and over — it opens people's hearts to Jesus.

CHIP: Give me a couple of examples of that, because, you know, I've watched you do this — it's so natural, it's so close to you. But let's say I want to sit down with one of my grandchildren, and they know where I'm coming from, and they're kind of waiting for the big religious things. What kind of questions? I mean, the average grandparent, and many parents — it's not like they're living on social media, or they're certainly not living on the same sites that their teenagers or young adults are. So what kind of questions, what kind of issues do you find are almost universal, whether it's Moscow or Brazil or New York City or, you know, rural town Iowa? The youth culture is pretty much the same everywhere because of what's happened with media and especially social media. So help — kind of, a parent, or maybe pastor — how do you start these conversations? What kind of things do you talk about?

AARON: Yeah, well, I would say some of the big topics that are relevant are questions of identity and self-worth, questions of... you know, there's a real desire for activism of some variety. And, of course, it's based on — activism and social justice is based on moral codes of making wrong things right, and that the world is broken and we need to do something about it. Or there's a deep desire for belonging and community. All these topics — identity, self-worth, justice, belonging and community — I mean, the gospel speaks to these things profoundly. Are the kinds of things that young people care about, that they're wrestling with. And so, to have open-ended questions about "where do you find your identity, your self-worth," or "in a world that is so broken, where do you get your hope from? Can we fix all of this?" Or "why is it that we desire deep, intimate relationships, and yet every one of us experiences relational brokenness — what is that about?" And sit in that and wrestle with that. Don't necessarily come with all the answers. In fact, be honest that some of these questions are hard and we wrestle with them too. And the idea is create an environment, not where you need to convince them that you're right and that you've got all the answers, but rather create an environment where they can pursue truth. It's a very different thing. And that's what I think people are hungry for. And it's much more conducive for a healthy, open conversation.

CHIP: Okay, we're going to do something I've never done before. And I hope people will listen to more than the next sentence, because I could get in a lot of trouble here. But I'd like to do something I've never done — I'd like to role play, just for a minute. Because what you're giving to me are the concepts, and you're giving me the categories. But I've been with you, and, you know, and I've learned from you, is — okay, I want to, I'm going to go with — I'm... I'm 24 years old. I've abandoned the faith. I'm in a homosexual lifestyle. I'm, you know, I get where my parents are coming from. They're kind of narrow. They believe that stuff. They've hooked their Jesus to big groups and all kind of stuff. I've pretty much rejected all of that. You know, I really just think that, you know, my truth is my truth. And I, you know, I'm working, finding a life of meaning on my own. And so I'm at a coffee shop, and by now I have a few symbols of the alternative lifestyle, whatever you think they are. And you walk in, and maybe I'm involved in a big justice cause, and we're rallying — we're going to make a difference in the world because the world's totally messed up. And you meet me. So how do you approach me? What kind of questions? Where do you go?

AARON: Well, again, first, it depends how well I know you. But my first thing is like, "tell me how you doing? How's life? What's — what are you? What's going on in your world?" And then I can go further and just start to ask questions about the things that you care about. You know, if you've been involved in a protest — like, okay, what are you doing? What is the protest? What are you hoping to accomplish? How did you get involved in that? Help me understand your journey — you didn't arrive at these views just suddenly, it came through a journey. Give me some concept, I want to understand your view. And then I want to find things that I can affirm — "what I really respect about you, I respect that you see that the world is broken, and I want you to know I'm with you, I see it too. But I respect that you're not just standing by, you're not just kind of going about your life, you want to do something about it, and I respect that. And I want you to know that I'm in agreement with you that this world is broken and we've got to do something about it." And then I can begin to challenge or ask some questions, like, you know, "do you think that there's a political solution to what's wrong in the world? Do you think that if we get the right politics or the right education, we can fix our problems?" And then ask some questions around that. And inevitably, you know, if they're honest, they're going to say, "well, I don't know, I think that that might not be enough." And you're like, "yeah, I think there's something deeper. There's a — there's a — there's something in my heart, there's a corruption, there's a — there's a brokenness personally that seems to need to be fixed so that I can be at peace with others" — and asking questions around that. So, so how can I find points of connection? How can I affirm the good I see in their life? Or how can I ask them about other things in their life? Like, you know, they're a human being, they've got struggles and brokenness. You know, maybe they've got a broken relationship, or maybe someone close to them has been diagnosed with cancer, or maybe they're struggling with some mental health issues. Offer to pray — "you know, can I pray for you?" And even if they're not religious, they're not likely to reject it. They're going to say, "man, I know that means you care." And then praying for people for their felt needs. So just how do I have natural conversations, not feeling the need to rush into things, but to draw out who they are, the deeper things, the brokenness that they experience, and to meet them in those places. But it takes curiosity, it takes asking good questions and listening, it takes patience. It also is like... and trusting the Holy Spirit to do the work that the Holy Spirit will do, and not trying to be the hero. Just, "God, what do you want me to do in this moment?" And trusting that he will lead the conversation where he wants to lead. If you kind of come in with that approach, rather than "I got to get my answers out, I got to get my gospel script out," rather just relaxing and trying to understand the person — it's a very different posture. So I hope that was specific enough.

CHIP: Yeah. And I think a lot of people listening right now will feel like, "gosh, that feels like I'm compromising. That feels like I'm not standing up for the truth. That feels like I'm not being the kind of Christian I need to be." And, you know, one of the things — you know, I think both in your book and then in the small group resource — you give us some snapshots of Jesus through a little bit different lens. We tend to put Jesus inside the church, inside our lens. And in the small group resource, you help us see that Jesus is talking with an immoral woman in a very private place. You help us understand that he's with a group of people that are in a pretty big party that are... whose lifestyles are way, way out there, and he's being accused of a lot of things. And he does — I forget, someone listed the number of questions in the New Testament that Jesus asks, and I mean, it's like 70 to 1, how many answers that he gives. He constantly is helping people come to conclusions, because at the end of the day, there really is a huge inconsistency. But purpose? Loneliness, identity, hurts, wounds — we all have them. They're just living in a different world, and they've been given a set of answers that fix it short-term and then bring a lot of pain. Tell us a little bit about how, as you have developed the small group resource — I know we worked on this together, and then your team filmed this because you realize you can't keep flying around to all these churches and doing these seminars — how has that gone? How has it been received? What are the strengths? What are the minuses? What do you say to that person who says, "you know what? I guess I'm willing to try anything right now, my approach isn't working, I'm really open" — and maybe not just for my own kids, but for the young people in our church, and we can't keep doing the same things in church and seeing the same negative results. I'm talking to one of those people, say, "you know what, I'm open. If there's a different way to reach them, help us understand what's been effective," and maybe what suggestions you've learned.

AARON: I think that this, I mean, it's been incredibly effective. We've seen just incredible feedback, many testimonies of how it's had impact in people's lives. I think, you know, in the end, the biblical principles are not that they're not all that revolutionary — they're just, how do I apply biblical principles to our current cultural moment? Which is really what it's about. And it's also — sometimes we've relegated evangelism to a certain kind of person with a certain kind of personality, and if I don't really fit that personality, then I guess it's not for me. And so this is designed to create a kind of process that you can follow that's biblically grounded that really anyone can apply. Because, you know, you don't have to be this crazy extroverted person, or someone that knows all the apologetic answers. The question is, can you be a good friend? Can you follow the example of Jesus by becoming a friend of sinners? Can you intentionally pursue people in your sphere of influence that today are not following Jesus and engage in spiritual conversations, which is just an extension of a meaningful friendship? If you have meaningful friendships with people, you're going to ask more than just the weather and sports — you're going to get into deeper things because you care. And then, if I'm really sharing my life with someone, they're going to know that I love Jesus, that he changed my life, that it's because of him that I have peace in this broken world. And so, how can I do this in a way that's intentional — still requires courage and boldness and faith — but it makes sense in the context, and it connects with people who probably, if my only way of engaging them is to pull out a gospel script or invite them to church — which are all, those are fine, those are good things to do — but there's a big segment of people, particularly younger people, that just won't connect with that. And so this is relational, but yes, it's bold too, because Jesus is the answer and we need to preach Christ and him crucified. But it's doing it in a way that people can understand. And if I could just make the last point — the whole heart of this is, how do I communicate Jesus in a relevant way? And relevance does not mean watering it down. Relevance does not mean compromising theologically or morally. Relevance is about communicating in a way that people will understand. And then, of course, they have to make their own choices. But I think that's the distinction — we're trying to make Jesus accessible so they can understand who he is. And again, people then have to make their choices from there. I think one of the observations that some really smart apologists have made — I think of Sean McDowell and others that... working with young people all the time, teaching at Biola, a professor there — you know, he just said, you know, in times past, you could start, because there was a common understanding, you could start with the truth and then explain grace. And today, we need to flip that. You have to start with grace and help people see and understand. Back then, you had to win an argument. Now you need to win a hearing. Your life and your care and your concern — and it's not either/or, it's just a little bit different order.

CHIP: Well, okay, let's jump to a little bit different, more controversial side of things.

AARON: Can I just add to that grace and truth thing? I think that's exactly right. I also think that the flip is, in the past, you had to believe before you could belong.

CHIP: Yes.

AARON: And maybe even behave before you believe, before you belong. And I think today we want to create spaces where people can belong before they believe. That's what our whole Bible study for the non-religious is about — is create a space for community that they long for even before they believe. So I think that we're kind of — we're not saying that belief doesn't matter, we're not saying that truth doesn't matter, we're just saying that sometimes you have to approach it in a different way. And that means inviting people over for dinner. And even if you don't share the gospel or tell your testimony, it's a wonderful thing. It's meeting for coffee. It's going in with five questions to say, "you know, I read all about this loneliness epidemic, how are your friends dealing with all of that, what could I do to support them?"

CHIP: And I will say one thing that you really hit on that I have found personally have been — and, you know, like I'm an old white guy, okay, so I mean, there's no getting around it — and so when I'm connecting with people that are maybe really far from God and they see me, just like everyone sort of makes preconceived ideas about you — I'm thinking building a bridge for me might be a little bit harder than other people. But as I just sought to be compassionate and look people in the eye and ask a few questions — and I can't help my eyes kind of tearing up when I hear some of the brokenness — I have done things in coffee shops or street corners, or with homeless people, because they find themselves in tragic situations, and put their hand on their shoulder and say, "would you be okay — I'm a follower of Jesus, he cares about you, could I pray for you?" One out of a hundred times, someone's looked at me and said, "no way." I mean, the response to a genuine, loving moment — and by the way, I don't pray the gospel out loud, so I make sure they get it — I want them to experience the compassion, the love of God, and that He cares, and that He would reveal Himself to them. And then, often, when appropriate, with men, usually not with women, but the physical touch — people who are so isolated and hurting, we got to remember the depth of their soul, to get a hug from someone in an appropriate way, or to meet a need right then: "hey, why don't we go inside and let me buy you a meal?" Or, "you know, I've got some friends that might be able to help you, you talked about you need some work, whatever that is." Those practical things that build bridges that say, I don't just care — you know, 1 John 3:18 says, let us not love with word or tongue, but in deed and truth. We actually do something to help them. I think that's a really important part of this. I want to shift gears, because all this sounds kind of great in general, and then the politics comes up, gender comes up, homosexuality comes up. You mentioned the name of a political figure on the left or on the right. What I loved most about the book, and I know you cover it in the small group resource — you actually talk about diving deep into those things in a way that doesn't alienate, because you can't get around them in our world. I mean, you can't have a conversation where those things immediately polarize and divide. So give us a little insight about how do you do that? "I'm at work, I work with a lot of people that have a very different view of life and God, I want to reach them, especially younger people" — and these are the kind of things that are absolute discussion stoppers and relationship stoppers. How do you talk about these issues in a way that doesn't just kill the relationship?

AARON: Yeah. Well, it goes back to something you said earlier, Chip, which is that I think it starts with me. And, have I got my priorities right? And the core here is that we don't make secondary things primary — which is, like, the goal is for people to meet Jesus. And when they meet Jesus, and they encounter the beauty of who he is — it's like that old hymn, you know, "look unto Jesus, look full unto his face, and the things of this earth will grow strangely dim." When you meet Jesus, everything else fades away. And so what happens, though, is when we take secondary things — like our political ideology, or even morality, which is a downstream impact of when I encounter Jesus and I trust him, then I submit myself to him — primary, and I put them in front of Jesus, I actually make it harder for people to see Jesus. And so the challenge is for me: am I pointing people to Jesus, or am I pointing them to something secondary that I've elevated? And so, just not taking the bait, not looking to argue at that superficial level, but get deeper — peace, it's about justice, it's about order in the world, it's about "how do I respond to the brokenness?" Well, the gospel speaks clearly to those things. Sexuality ultimately is about belonging, intimacy, love, relationships — deep, meaningful things. So rather than arguing at the superficial level, let's find places of connection at the deeper level, and then point to how Jesus answers those things. And so I think it's reframing it that way.

CHIP: Yeah, I've witnessed this. Could you share a story of someone that, you know, with regard to their morality, their politics, all the kind of things that the average person would say, "there is no way that person's ever going to respond to Jesus" — could you tell us a story? In fact, I've read just a couple recently as I, you know, I get your email and things — how this happens in someone's life. Maybe, you know, we've talked about concepts that provide truth and a skeleton and some general direction, but maybe put some clothes on it. Maybe tell me a story that I could say, "oh, so..." And don't, you know, I don't want you to, you know, reveal anything about a specific person that would, you know, not be appropriate, but whatever you're free to share, that would really be helpful to people.

AARON: Yeah, I mean, I have so many. I remember, you know, I live in Minneapolis, so we've had a lot of political unrest over the years here, which, of course, that brings all sorts of challenges, but it also brings opportunities. And so when these challenges arise, our team tends to go and find places where we can connect with people. And I remember one time connecting with a couple. They looked, you know, as you know, they were very alternative dress, very — they kind of had the look of a very particular kind of political perspective, and the kind of perspective that often would see Christians as their enemy. And we went and talked to them, sat down and just had a conversation about why they were there and why their hearts were broken over this. And we just began to talk about the brokenness of the world. And I've already alluded to it, which is like, you know, "we see all this brokenness, but do you think that we're going to solve it with politics?" And then inevitably they're like, "no." And then you can go deeper, and you're like, "you talk about my own brokenness, the brokenness of the world, but what about my brokenness, or the brokenness of my family?" And, you know, we all desire these intimate relationships — these are the conversations we're having. But why is it that we all experience relational brokenness? And asking questions — "do you think there's someone that will never hurt you or disappoint you?" And they begin to open up and say, "you know, I've experienced betrayal, I've experienced heartbreak." And then I can share, you know, I believe that God sees that, he sees your pain, he sees the cry of your heart, and he cries with you, and that he sent Jesus to bring healing, to bring forgiveness, to bring reconciliation, which is what we all require. And that actually Jesus is the answer to what you're looking for. So, you know, at a political rally, I can talk about Jesus, because he's the source to the greater brokenness, to the fundamental brokenness that we face. But I have so many other examples. I've met with a guy — he was gay. We connected with him at an outreach. And he told me that he had a small business, he was an artist. And so the thing is, even though the world tells you that their sexuality is their primary identity, it's not — people have all sorts of things that are going on in their life. And I don't have to just connect in that space. So I have a little bit of a business background. I said, "hey, let's meet, and let me help you walk through your business plan." And so we met for coffee, and we began to talk about his business, and we were talking various practical things. And then eventually we moved to some topics — some spiritual topics, which is identity and purpose, which are critical to the whole sexuality topic. And I talked about, "hey, you're starting this business, and starting a small business is hard, most fail, and you need to root yourself in an identity that won't be shaken by the storms that you're going to face. You need something that you can hold on to. Because if you put your identity in something that can be taken from you, then you're vulnerable to circumstances." And I shared how, for me, my identity was found in the unconditional love of God, that I was a child of God, and that that identity could not be taken from me. And I had a conversation with this guy using business — yeah, he was gay, but we talked about business that I could connect to identity and where we find our identity. So conversations like that we can have all the time, and we have many conversations like that. Well, it takes time and it takes patience, and I think it's a long play that I think what we miss.

CHIP: And, you know, I happen to know a little bit about that story, because you and I have talked before. And what you just described didn't happen the very first time you met him. I mean, you sat down in a circle while all the things were going on. You ask him why they were there. You're motivated — "gosh, you know, you seem really, really angry about some things" — and you listen to all their anger and why, and which politicians they hated and what was happening in the world — completely broken. And then you ask him some why questions, which led to some reoccurring relationships that built the kind of safety that you're talking about. And so I think for some of us, it just realizes we got to get out of our Christian cocoon and out of "I go to church on this day, I live my life over here." If you want to see people know Jesus, you have to go where they are. You have to make time, taken away from other things. And for some of you, that's your own kids. And because they've rejected you, you're living in hurt — "well, they rejected me." Well, and it's passive aggressive, and now you're rejecting them by not being engaged — "well, I'm not going to go to that, and I'm not going to be involved in that." And guess what? The enemy is winning when that's your attitude. And it takes tremendous humility to grasp — hey, I may be right, but being right is not as important right now as having the right attitude and developing the right relationship as a bridge, with absolutely no compromise to what I believe about Scripture, about Jesus, about salvation. And it will require a cost. And I would just say to those listening: if you really care deeply about your own children and grandchildren, and if you are concerned about the world, and maybe especially America, since we're living here, and the movement that you see — the change doesn't happen by someone coming on a white horse. Now, that will happen one day when the Lord returns. But it's going to happen one person at a time, one small group, one little group of friends, one community at a time, who says, "we refuse to continue to live the way we're living." We must build relationships. It makes us uncomfortable. We don't know exactly how to do it, but we can't not do it. And I just want to say that you guys are modeling that. And I tell people this, Aaron — I think you are modeling that here and around the world more effectively than anyone I know. I'm not saying there's other people that aren't doing it as well, and great things happening — just, in my personal experience, if anyone wanted to know how to reach the next generation, what you all actually do, not just talk about, is... the model that I see in the New Testament. In fact, the one thing you said — it was so interesting, when I watched your process, and, you know, I'm sort of a synthesizer, and so, you know, I organized it in my mind, and, you know, this is how you could communicate it and codify it, and here's how we would write about it — but I remember thinking, "you guys just are doing what Jesus did, and you are seeing the same results that Jesus had." And the Bible's really clear — not wishy-washy love, but love: absolute, sacrificial, costly, other-centered, desperate prayer, fervent prayer — love never fails. And that's the hope that we have. And the resource that you all put together, along with the book, the new small group resource — I think Dave will tell everyone about how they can get that. Any final thoughts, as we wrap things up here, in terms of talking to that — especially — my heart goes out — your conversations are, you know, a little different age group. If I had $100 for every parent or grandparent that I've talked to that are shaking their head and in tears — "I don't get it, I don't know what happened, as far as I knew we were sincere, we were intentional, we did everything right, how did we end up here" — I would be a very, very, very rich person. And those people are hurting, Aaron.

AARON: Yeah, I know. And a lot of them are a part of who listen in or do studies with Living on the Edge.

CHIP: Could you give them just a word of hope as we wrap things up?

AARON: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I guess I would say that God sees your heart, and he sees your tears, and he knows the grief, the confusion, the disappointment, and even the questions you've wrestled with, maybe asking yourself, "did I fail? Did I do something wrong?" I mean, these are real questions, and you're not alone in asking them. But I guess I want to encourage you with this: your child's story is not over, and God has not stopped working. Even when you don't see it, he is pursuing. I think that's what gives me so much hope, is that God loves your child more than you love your child. And he left the 99 to go after the one, and he continues to do that. And God is active and moving in the world. I can say it, I can testify it — we are seeing young Christian leaders raised up, fueling grassroots movement, reaching people like your kids right now. That they are with them in the clubs, the cafes, the universities, the music festivals, the spaces where they are, befriending them and sharing Jesus. And we are seeing God moving. And so I just want you to know, God is on the move. He is raising up a new generation of radical young people. And so, again, the encouragement here is we are just one part of what God is doing. You are one part of what God is doing. You don't have to hold it all together. It doesn't depend entirely on you. Do your part — you know, get on your knees and cry out to God, pursue your child, meet them on their turf, and respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. But ultimately, God is doing the work. And he is on the move. And so our hope is not in ourselves. It's not in our perfect parenting. It's not in having all the right answers. Our hope is in Jesus. And that's what gives me confidence.

CHIP: Amen. Thank you, Aaron.