Sex, Sexuality, and Gender: Tough Questions, Practical Answers

CHIP: I am super excited about this program. And Tim, thanks for being with us. It's great to have you.

TIM: Well, it's a privilege to be here and be a part.

CHIP: Well, we have covered some heavy-duty things this month. We've talked about an entire series about caring enough to confront. Bringing Light, Not Heat, to today's kind of pivotal and controversial issues. and, you know, we've played, your message on sexuality, transgender, LGBTQ. What was the motivation and desire in kind of jumping into these heavy duty issues?

TIM: Yeah, it really wasn't a desire to be controversial. It was pastoral. Just we had too many families; they're asking these questions. And also, you know, as a parent with teenagers still in the home, I'm looking at this next generation who are bombarded with false teaching on all of these issues. And if the Church is not willing to step up and just teach the truth in a straightforward manner, we shouldn't be shocked if our kids embrace a different ideology if we're not willing to teach them the truth. So it really was driven out of a desire to shepherd families and a desire to really reach our next generation and at least make a case for truth for them.

CHIP: I have the unique privilege of having been the senior pastor of Venture Christian Church. And then you and I working on staff together for a pretty good season. And then a little five and a half years ago, you came and became the senior pastor. And because you were so gracious, I actually attend the church. So I get to hear you and you're my pastor. And as I listened to you teach this series. Theresa and I were sitting there and I just told her, I said, “Honey, I can teach on these things but Tim is handling this so well, but he's in the thick of it.” and I really want to thank you for what you've done and that balance of being tender and kind and truthful. And so, you know, the way that we're going to do this. Let's play the first question that was a pretty tough one that is happening all across America and around the world is what do you say to a parent when their child comes out and says, “I identify now as LGBTQ”? And here's a quick audio clip of how you address that for the people at Venture Christian Church

TIM (Audio Clip): I would just say first of all, listen, listen, listen. Be quick to hear and slow to speak. Just listen to them. Listen to what they're thinking. Listen to their story. Just create a place where they can be heard. Doesn't mean you agree, but you hear them. The second thing I'd say is this, express your love and your support as God's grace bearer and truth teller in their life. Every parent, you are a grace bearer and you're a truth teller. That's fundamental to your role. You're establishing a culture in your home of does grace mark this place? And am I bringing that grace? Well, at the same time, do we align our lives to truth? And that's the tension you feel in that moment of, okay, I want to speak the truth immediately. Here's what I'd encourage you lead with grace, because that's what God does. God always leads with grace. He never undercuts truth. He never shies away from truth, but he's always quick to lead with grace.

As you do this, recognize there's going to be a tension between how you each define your identity and your belief. So here's the hard part. If you as a Christian, you go, "Hey, Tim, I agree with every sermon you've said. I agree with the Bible says, I'm basing my stand off of this." And then they come forward in this. You're at a tension point with your child, and this is what makes it so hard in parenting. Now, for them especially, here's how the culture defines it. The culture is said, "Hey, if you have this attraction, if you have this desire, this is who you are." Their identity is built off of it. This is why, by the way, often the church over the years has said, hate the sin, love the sinner. You know what they hear when you say that? Hate the sinner because they're not identifying their behavior as sin. They're identifying their behavior as their identity. I am gay. This is who I am. Now, you probably don't identify yourself as that way. That's probably not your governing thought when you said, oh, if I said, "Hey, tell me a little bit about yourself," probably the first thing you don't say is, "Well, I'm heterosexual."

And this is where the tension often comes is unless you accept this, unless you agree with this, we can't have relationship. Now, can I say that's a two-way street by the way though, because as well, we are people who our identity is based on Jesus Christ, and it's based on what God's word says about us. And so in the same way that someone says, hey, unless you agree with this, we could make the same claim and say, well, unless you agree with the Bible, you can't accept me because my whole identity is based on the Bible and you don't accept the Bible. See, here's the clash you're going to have to decide together, can we love each other and even accept each other without agreeing with each other? And the reason this is so hard today is our culture is determined that you can't do this unless you agree. On everything by the way, unless you agree about COVID, unless you agree about politics. Unless you agree, we can't have relationship. That's the teaching of the culture. By the way, that's the last point in Romans one when a culture breaks down. That you treat each other this way. And so at a fundamental place, what you've got to determine as a family is we're going to have this fundamental disagreement. You define life this way.

We're defining it based on what we see Scripture teaching. That's not going to change. And I would just challenge you, if you're a parent, I believe you're called to love them and to live in that tension. You are the unique grace bearer and truth teller in their life that God's placed over and it will be sacrificial and it will be hard. I'll just say in my years of pastoral ministry, I've never seen it just turn out well when a parent just shuts them off based on this issue. And so I would say, how did you move in into the messiness of the grace while at the same time not sacrificing the truth? I wish I had one size fits all prescription, like I could go, man, if you just do this, every story's a little bit different. And while we're at this, could we do this for each other? Could we extend each other a little grace on how people are handling it? That you look at it and you go, "Well, I wouldn't have done that." You don't know. You're not in it.

CHIP: Well, Tim, thanks for tackling that really tough question. you really addressed: what are the principles behind that? What kind of feedback did you get in answering this particular question and anything you would share with those listening who are saying to themselves, “I needed that, but now what do I do?”

TIM: Yeah, it was interesting in every service you'd have different parents who came down and for the first time they're, they're telling their pastor, “Yeah, I've got a child who identifies as gay or a child who's trans.” And so it's almost a freeing point for them to be able to go, “Okay, I'm not alone in this.” And we were able to create some community for them to get them in touch with other pastors. So think the health of talking about it helps people do this life together. I think the other thing that I heard the most was people had not heard it framed in that way because they had always been told, “Well, you're the one rejecting me because of what I believe because I'm gay,” and to be able to turn around and go, “Well, no, you're also rejecting me because I identify in Christ and so this is a two way street on this and if we're going to have relationship, are you willing to love me despite what you reject in my life? While in the same way, I'm willing to love you despite with what I disagree with in your life,” and at least giving some level ground to build a conversation.

CHIP: Well, let's jump into perhaps the most controversial one, and I think it's the most important one inside the Church. And, you know, I've lived in the Bay Area for over twenty-five years, and Santa Cruz even more progressive than, you know, this side of what we call the Hill, Silicon Valley. And one of the things that's happening inside the Church is a whole theology that, being gay and being a follower of Christ are not mutually exclusive. And I thought you handled this really well. Let's take a listen…

TIM (Audio Clip): Can you be LGBT and be a Christian? Or put it this way, does being LGBT send you to hell? Now most people don't state it this harshly, but can I say this to you? This second form of the question is how many in that community hear it? And if you tell them I'm an evangelical Christian, many of them immediately go to that posture. "Oh, you think I'm going to hell because I'm gay?" Now, part of it, they've seen it on the news and they've seen different groups stand up with their signs and all that, and unfortunately, we get associated with all of that. But as you look at this and this question around it is, can somebody be gay and be a Christian? Can somebody be trans and be a Christian? Does that ongoing lifestyle send them to hell? Now let me reverse it. Of course it doesn't send them to hell because being straight doesn't send you to heaven. Okay? Just know that. In those categories.

And part of this, and I think it's important why we wrestle with these issues, especially sexual issues, because this is where you really have to wrestle. What do you believe about the Gospel? As it applies to some of the hardest areas in our life. As we look at it, here's the first thing I would say. Christ did not wait for us to clean up our lives in order to be worthy of salvation. This is what makes the Gospel. This is what makes Christianity so different than any other religion. Every other religion is telling you how to clean up your life in order to be worthy of god or worthy of Nirvana or worthy of whatever else is out there. It is a plan of how to get there. Christianity is this radical plan that says you won't get there. But Christ got there. I love what Paul says in Romans five. He says, "While we were still weak, at the right time, Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person, though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die, but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

And so a fundamental part whether, and it doesn't matter what the issue is, it doesn't matter if it's a sexual issue, any issue in life, we've got to start, if we're people of the Gospel that we start with the fact that Christ died for us while we were still sinner in any form. Then you add to that we are made righteous because of the work of Christ on the cross. So it's not behavior modification, it's not okay if I could just teach you to reform your behavior a little bit and you'll get that much better. Now we've got to start with this radical need that I have, but also the radical work of it. And we've looked at this verse several times, but I want to dive in again, because this is one of those ones I think Paul's laying out the categories and it includes some of the issues we're talking about. He says, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindler will inherit the kingdom of God."

That's a pretty long list of things that he says this is unrighteous behavior. This is unrighteous people. People whose lives are defined by this. Now, it is interesting when you read through the list our eyes, quickly go to the sexual ones. Oh, idolaters, oh homosexuality. We can go to those places. One, because it's pretty easy to define. You know when somebody's crossed that line. We probably don't go real quick to greedy. Anybody here struggle with being greedy? Nobody ever admits to being greedy. Greedy is always like that category, those people with it. And yet as Paul looks at it, he goes, man, how about idolatry? You ever place anything in your life as more important than God? That's idolatry. That marks unrighteousness in this. As you look at this category, I love again, look how Paul defines it.

He says, "Such were some of you." Now, he's not saying this just because, oh, they're all perfect, that everybody in the church in Corinth never struggles with greed again. That everybody in the church in Corinth never struggles with placing anything as an idol in their life. I mean any of these things, what he's saying is this is why you're not that person anymore. You were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of God. This is what changed you, the work of Christ. Not because you've now cleaned up your act enough that you'd be considered that. Guys, if we don't get this right, we don't get the Gospel right. I'll be honest. And honestly it's easy as church, we can teach a moralism more than we really teach Gospel.

The radical change that happened in our life, the radical change that happened in our identity, the radical change that makes a difference before eternity is that if you, have embraced Christ as your Lord and Savior, you have literally been justified. God declared you righteous. And you're being sanctified, you're washed. And in his eyes, you are clean before him because of what Christ did. Now you hear that and you go, "Well, Tim, are you just saying then we're washed and then anybody can live any way they want? No, the Gospel always goes on. We have a responsibility to grow in our righteousness in Christ. In fact, Paul, we just looked at 1 Corinthians six where you made that declaration just a few verses later. Look what Paul says. He says, "Hey, you got a responsibility here. Flee from sexual immorality. Yes, Christ has washed you.

Yes, you've been changed. Yes, that's your identity. Now here's your responsibility in light of that." Man in any form, you flee from it. Every other sin a person commits outside of the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body's the temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You're not your own. He bought you. So it's not your decision anymore. So glorify God in your body. And so at a fundamental level, and again you go, "Tim, this seems pretty basic." It's so basic. We often miss it. And I think the places we miss it the most are in sexual brokenness. The place we know we need grace most, the place grace needs to be extended most is often in these areas. And the place that we've got to put that in place most is in these areas as well. And so as you look at that and you think about it, I would just encourage you that we've got to be honest with people about what Christ calls them to, while at the same time not setting up barriers in front of them that frankly, God didn't set up in front of us.

CHIP: Well, Tim, I believe that is the message that Christ calls us to. And this had to be one of the toughest questions. But I remember sitting there and listening and I thought it was so helpful that you really reframed the whole context of the question, you know, can an LGBTQ person be a Christian around not just that, but all of us with all of our sin? How does God look at that and how does that actually work? Tell me a little bit about why and how you've kind of provided a new context for that question that was so helpful.

TIM: Yeah, I think it comes down to: do we really frame everything around the Gospel? Are we more concerned with helping people live a more moral lifestyle, which frankly would make us feel more comfortable, or are we concerned with the fact that they come to Christ? You know, I look at the early Church in Acts 15 when they wrestled with this and they said, “We don't want to put any barriers in front of Gentiles coming to the Gospel.” But in the same statement they said, “But we will call them to live a life that's fully surrendered to Christ especially in the area of sexuality.” And so, I think it's that balance of no barriers.

CHIP: Right.

TIM: I'm not going to force you to clean up your life before you come to Christ, but in the same way no compromise. I'm not going to preach a Gospel that says, oh, you don't have to submit this part of your life to Christ. It's both and I think that's the struggle but so often we get them backwards and we put up barriers before they've ever even had the experience with Jesus, or we look at Christians and we kind of go, “Well, you can compromise there,” in a way that the early Church never would and so I think holding to both of those really keeps us in a safer place.

CHIP: Well, as I sat there my mind immediately went to, “Wait a second, your answer, that applies to adulterers. That applies to porn addiction. That applies to stealing at work. That applies to lust in our heart.” In other words, you reframed it around the Gospel. And I think it, especially for, you know, people that take the Bible seriously or maybe people that are conservative in lots of areas, it's kind of easy to cherry pick this issue of homosexuality and, man, we're going to bash that one. That's the sin. I mean, that's, you know, boy, there's the issue. And brush under the rug all the Gospel implications to live a holy life that we're all called to. I do wonder, I mean this one, you could hear a pin drop when you were answering this one. Any feedback that came out of this question that might be helpful for our listeners?

TIM: You know there was a little push back on both sides of the equation. You know, you have some who come and they would say, “Man, I feel like when you say no barriers you're really endorsing a lifestyle on that,” and then on the flip side of it you had some that were very uncomfortable because of the issue you just said it not only cuts across the issue of homosexuality but you've got a lot of adults in the Church that have embraced that it's okay to embrace a sexual lifestyle, and that we can compromise there. So when you really push on both sides of that it really makes everybody uncomfortable, which it should. I mean, if the Gospel was something that was comfortable to us we would have come to it but Scripture says none of us came to it on our own. And so, frankly, I was sort of relieved to get a little push back on both because I felt like okay we're presenting at least clearly enough that everybody's feeling it.

CHIP: You know, in the words of the apostle Paul, we're all under sin. And then the answer is the Gospel, not picking and choosing which of these that we find, the ones that we're guilty of, we find more acceptable. And the ones that are just, oh wow, that's terrible. The fact of the matter is, any sin separates us from God. And God's heart, He longs to restore all of us if we're willing.

TIM: Yeah, it's interesting. We serve a God who needs nothing from us, but in coming to Him, He asked for everything because every area of our life that we give to Him is always better. It doesn't mean it's cured, it doesn't mean it's perfect, depending on where you start. But everything that He asks us to submit is always better. And I think we have to hold to that even for people that this is a really hard truth in their life.

CHIP: Yeah. Well, these are not little, small questions and unfortunately, one of the reasons I asked you to come and I wanted to have a conversation is it's just easy, someone hears this podcast, someone else hears that podcast, someone reads this book that's pro, this book that's against. And I think what we're not doing inside the Church is talking openly and honestly. And we have some top-level questions that we're going to address in our next broadcast, like, should you attend a gay wedding? Should we use personal pronouns for transitioning people? And then even kind of those practical questions like, do you allow a gay couple to stay in your house overnight? I mean, this is real life church with people with kids and families and vacations and weddings that you go to and people from all kind of backgrounds. And so thanks for being here today. And in our next broadcast, we're going to jump right in and talk about those questions.
CHIP: Well, someone walks up to you after a service and says, “My niece is getting married. I have a really close relationship with her. I've always been that special aunt. I love her so very, very much. Here's the question. Should I attend the wedding?” In other words, should you attend the wedding of a gay couple? How do you answer that?

TIM: Yeah, I think again, I would say this is a gray area. Some people would say it's black and white. And I recognize this. And as you said, I think we’ve got to be clear what we're talking about in these differences are between Christians who hold to a biblical Christian sexual ethic.

CHIP: Yes.

TIM: We're not talking about people that hold a different ethic. Within that, I think you have to address it like any gray area. One, is the Bible absolutely clear on this issue? Where it's clear, you can't waver. But if it hasn't addressed it directly and I've not seen those Scriptures that tell you about attending weddings or not, I think you have to step back and look at passages like Romans 14 through 16. What does the Bible say about gray areas? You know, back in that time there were many in the Church that said if you ate meat, you're endorsing idolatry. There's no way around it. And Paul had to address it and said, “Well, people have different conscience on this.” And in the same way I step back from it and I go, okay, somebody attending doesn't necessarily mean they endorse it. This may be just be a secular ceremony and they're not even seeing this as a covenant. That might frame it in a way that I could go, “Well, if they're not doing this before God, I can still keep that relationship.” The hard ones are the ones that do see this as a Christian wedding. They're asking you to come endorse it as a Christian wedding. I, as a pastor, don't feel like I can go to that wedding.

CHIP: Yes.

TIM: I certainly can't, do that ceremony because it's a covenant before God. But I do know others, and Bruce Miller is a pastor I really respect and Bruce has written a lot about parents in particular who feel like they are the only bridge into this child's life and that this will forever burn that bridge. And as they prayed about it before God, you know, you're balancing the two things, how do I love my child well and be salt and light in their life while, at the same time, how do I stand for truth? And some, before God, felt like their conscience told them, Holy Spirit told them: I need to go to the wedding. Others said, “No I can't. It violates my conscience to do that.” And so that'd be that other part that I don't think we're always comfortable with in these conversations. God actually says he's given us a Holy Spirit. He didn't write it laws on a tablet anymore, He's writing it on our hearts. And so are we bringing God's Word and what the Spirit says through His word to bear when we pray through and talk through these issues? And so, I know that's not that clear-cut but I do feel like it does provide some direction on it.

CHIP: Yeah, and I think there's just, if you would say there's tension, maybe one pull is even showing up, right? Is a tacit endorsement that I believe this is okay, whether you've spoken to them privately and told them this or told them that. And so for those who feel like: if I show up, everyone knows where I'm coming from. I'm endorsing something that I really believe is wrong. And then the flip side is the whole relationship of, what do I do in this relationship if my behavior means that we will never communicate ever again? And so, I think it's that tension. So there's danger on both sides.

TIM: And I think that's why it's really important, though, to clarify your goal. If your goal is not to make waves you're doing it for the wrong reason. You're going to the wedding for the wrong reason. If your goal is really the Gospel – Paul always said that, he said, “I would sacrifice my life in any way for the sake of the Gospel,” – if my goal is I'm only doing this for the sake of the Gospel then I go, “Okay, there may be a place where God’s called you to be that salt and light in the presence.” But if we're just doing it because I don't want to cause tension in the family, I would go, “That's not a good reason to go to a wedding.”

CHIP: Well that leads to one that gets sticky, especially in the workplace and school and, you know, should you use personal pronouns for transitioning people?

TIM: Yeah, I think this one's hard because there's really is a divide within the Christian community over this. I think for those like Rosario Butterfield and others who are really speaking to what it's doing to culture because when you change language you change your culture and they recognize that. And so they would say anytime you use that, you're lying. You're lying about the person and it has devastating effects to the culture. And I lean that way as I see where the culture is going with it. The one caveat I'd give when I hear from Preston Sprinkle and others who are in a therapeutic setting and they're dealing with people who truly have gender dysphoria, which is actually a small number.

CHIP: Yes.

TIM: We've got this social contagion that's been spread that so many people that really don't have it. But for those who truly have it, Sprinkle and others have said sometimes showing them the respect in this – and these are people who are trying to live a biblical ethic, they're not engaging in the lifestyle, but that dysphoria, that mental condition gets so triggered by it – they said sometimes giving them the respect of that helps with it. I'm not dealing with that but I don't want to just write it off because I'm not dealing with it. I would say for those where we see it out here in Silicon Valley the most is in the workplace. And so you have Christians who, you know, they're under an HR department that if they don't, you know, engage and identify as they've been told, they lose their job immediately. I would say to them I look biblically to people like Daniel, I look to Esther, people who were put in very immoral situations. And as I look at their story, they did not make changing the morality of the workplace of the court of where they were their number one issue. God had called them for a time such as this to serve in that place. And when they had the opportunity, they were able to be salt and light. And so, I look at Christians that I go: I don't think God's calling you to go in tomorrow and you have to sacrifice your job because He may have you in that context as salt and light. Now, if you're pushed on your individual beliefs, always stand for it. But you don't have to broadcast that belief or suddenly go against everything in a company and that's the only way to be salt and light in that company. I think there's other models in Scripture that show us how to do that.

I, for my part, I'm pronoun avoidant. I would repeat their name in the place of the pronoun as, one, this is a bridge of respect. I'm willing to take this name but I have a hard time immediately switching to this new pronoun because I think at that point now I am really acknowledging something that I don't believe to be true in that. And so that's personally how I would deal. And then if they ask why are you doing that because sometimes it becomes obvious,

CHIP: Sure.

TIM: I would have to just tell them I don't think that gender and sexuality are fluid. I think God knew what He was doing when He designed you and He thought it was perfect and I don't want you to miss out on His best for you.

CHIP: The final question is, you know, people ask from the church, “Should I allow a gay couple to stay in my house overnight?” And I thought you dealt with that one really wisely as well. What did you share in terms of the answer to that one?

TIM: Yeah, I would just say be consistent in your standard and so if your standard is, “Hey, we represent in this home a biblical sexual ethic and so we don't believe it's best for you to stay in our home at least in the same bedroom, you know, there's separate bedrooms.” The only caveat I would say to people: do you apply that to your heterosexual friends and children? When they're coming home with girlfriends and that because if we're going to hold a standard let's hold the standard. The flip side of it I'd say as well, if you've got young children in the home, they're being molded by your behavior. Not just what they hear at church. They're being molded. And so I know families that they have had a sibling or aunt, uncle who's gay and they never talk about it because they don't want to ever deal with it, and the kids grow up and embrace that, oh man, this must be an acceptable lifestyle. And the kids are actually surprised because when the parents say, “Well, no, that that's not acceptable,” they say, “Well, you never said anything about it. I mean, we always saw that modeled.” So I really think it's important to have conversations at appropriate ages with kids to say, “Hey, we love, you know, uncle so-and-so. We love your aunt but you need to realize we disagree with their lifestyle and here's why here's what the Bible says about it and so want to make sure that you're really clear on what we believe about their relationship.”

CHIP: What I see happening over and over and you know, a lot of my background was in psychology, I – when I see the fallout, when I see what happens to relationships, when you look at the issues that happen, whether it's heterosexual or homosexual, when we break God's standards that are meant for our wellness so we can flourish, it always brings pain. We always reap what we sow. And there's part of me that's like, if you really care, I mean, if you really care about the outcomes of people, you can't be silent, but you can't be a jerk either.

TIM: Yeah and the part of it, you know, we're seeing Romans 1 play out. It's this unraveling of society. The good that comes out of that though is even the secular culture, even people who don't know Jesus, they look at it and go “This is crazy. This can't be true.” We had people who were unbelievers who came to this series and I was a little nervous about it because I thought they'd be against it. But over and over here's what I heard from them. “Well, I don’t agree with your Christianity per se, but at least you're providing answers on these issues and we have nowhere else to go to get reasonable answers.” And so it actually becomes a doorway to the Gospel and so we shouldn't be shy about just speaking truth. There's a clarity that comes with it.

CHIP: Well, this next one, I remember sitting in church and listening to this and my jaw dropped. You know, when you talk about sexuality, it's always transgender or homosexuality, or maybe it's adultery or, you know, unbiblical divorces or living together. Rarely have I heard anyone ask and answer this question: what does the Bible say about pornography? And your answer was like a wakeup call. And I kind of read, it's not like I'm in the dark. I had no idea honestly at the level of impact and some of the things you shared. So can we take a minute and let's listen to this audio clip and then I really want to ask you some questions as a follow-up to that.

TIM (Audio Clip): Pornography falls under the prohibitions against sexual immorality and lust. Hear me, pornography is always wrong. Jesus said, "You've heard it said you shall not commit adultery. I say to everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." It's always wrong. On top of that, I would just say to you, it's one of the most destructive forces in the world today. It literally is one of the most destructive forces in the world today. It is so widespread. It's so widespread through culture and it's so widespread through the evangelical church. So even as we dive into this, I know the uncomfort level goes up, the struggle is real here. It's here, it's inundated with us. It's coming at us every day. It's accessible in a way like never before. And it has the illusion that it remains anonymous. And it is so destructive. And when I say destructive, I'm not just talking morally. This verse always strikes me, Paul says, "Run from sexual immorality, flee from it."

Every other sin a person commits outside the body, but sexually immoral person sins against his own body. You're literally damaging your own body. And this proves true with pornography like few other categories. Pornography is a drug, it's just a drug. There's no other way around it. And it has the same impact on your brain as other drugs. They call it the Coolidge effect, that basically when a person sees porn, that rush of dopamine, those pleasure neurochemicals that just rush the brain like drugs do. And so then the brain has to respond to it, one, because it's too much of a rush of those neurochemicals, the receptors, they shut down part of the receptors, and in the same way, you don't always get the same production from the exact same stimulus. When someone starts doing a drug in order to get the same high because the brain's trying to protect itself, they have to do stronger drugs to get that same high again. Same thing happens with porn.

Then in the regular parts of life you have a dopamine withdrawal, and so you're down that much more and life's that less pleasurable. And then the only way to get that fix again is, well, I got to go back to my drug. And the cycle continues. And the hard part is there's so much shame around it, man, we don't know where to talk. We don't know how to get help. It's so destructive to a marriage. And I see this in counseling, the level of hurt and often the spouse who feels, "Man, was I not enough?" And here's what's hard because there's a hurt in the sexual area, but the hurt really even goes deeper in the deception, that you were lying to me, that you hid this from me in your isolation and it's a double whammy. Now, I get asked, one of the questions that comes in and is pornography grounds for divorce?

And I would say the instance and the act of someone looking at pornography, I don't think it's crossed that line that Jesus is saying when he's talking about the breaking of one flesh, where two bodies have been joined, but I think it opens the door. And here's what I mean in it. I've seen couples that if a partner is not willing to deal with it, it becomes a form of abandonment. And so they've abandoned this marriage in it, they're not living out what Corinthians calls them to out of it. And so I address it more as a form of abandonment if they're not willing to deal with it, that can lead to divorce. Certainly can lead to separation for a time in that, for them to take seriously this.

And I don't say that lightly and divorce is not something I'd ever push lightly, but I've also seen spouses trapped for years and years and years of a spouse who's not changing at all and not dealing with it and almost as a church, you hold over them, well, until they actually sleep with a person you can't. And I go, no, we got to jump in and deal with it. Now, hear me. Here's what you need to know. We got people all through this church that have had serious issues with it, serious issues in their marriage, thought they couldn't come back from it, addicted to it, and Jesus Christ has absolutely redeemed. But you need to know this, if you're addicted or even struggling, you're not going to overcome it alone.

I don't care how much you go home and tell yourself and you pray that much harder, "Okay, Jesus, this is the last time." You're not going to get out from under it and scripture tells you this. This is one of those that says, "Brothers, if anyone's caught in any transgressions, you who are spiritual should restore them in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens." This word burden, it's talking about a load that is so big, so crushing it would crush. It's like being under a boulder. You can't get out from under it. Porn is a burden. And if you're under it, I don't care how much you're praying and your intent in it, you need help. And you weren't designed to get out from under it alone. You need someone to come along and help bear that burden.

CHIP: Tim, as I heard the very last thing you said and having been a pastor here for close to four decades now, what we know is percentage-wise, there's a huge portion of listeners right now that are saying, “You're talking about me.” So what kind of feedback did you get? And are there any best practices? I'm a pastor listening or a parent. Is there any real hope? How have you addressed this and seen God work?

TIM: Yeah, I would say for those who are listening who right now you're feeling the shame of it. There is hope. God heals, God breaks the strongholds of Satan and you can't fall for the two lies he has. One lie is “I'll never get under that burden.” The other is you're under the burden and you say, “I'll never get out,” and you can. Christ has the strength in both cases but you're going to need to get some help. In our church, we've got some programs, we have one called Warrior Men and it's a very strong program, but grace filled but very accountable. And I have more guys in the church, I love it when they walk up and they just thank me and I'm not running the program, I'm not there, but they thank me because they go, “I never knew my marriage could be this way.

I never knew life could be… It feels like the air I breathe is clean again.” It just, it lifts that burden off of them just like Scripture talks about. And then we also have Journey Women that help the wives, but also help women that are involved in it as well. Those are two of the programs. There's many great ones out there. I would encourage any church if you're not providing some resource like this, you're failing to really allow your people to get out from under these burdens. They'll never do it alone. That was the other thing I would just challenge anyone, you will never do this alone. Satan wants you alone because when you're alone you're vulnerable. When you come into the light, you know, as John says, “As we walk in the light as He is in the light then we have that that fellowship, not only with God but with each other,” and I think those verses apply to this topic more than anything else. You just need to step into the light so you can experience both that relationship with God but also community with others.

CHIP: And it takes such courage and I just, you know, you and I have scores and scores of stories of watching people take those first steps. And, yes, it's hard and it's, there's shock and pain and hurt, but there really is, there really is hope. You know, there is no way to grow spiritually, authentically and have this secret. You know, and juggling sort of this compartmentalized life and the guilt that that produces health issues, marriage issues, just all kind of things and it is just one of those where I'm so glad you address this, Tim, because it's a huge problem and we've got to address it openly and, as a church, we can't call people to, “This is how you need to live,” knowing up to half of the men in our churches and a third of pastors are in this struggle. And just to sort of gloss over that and say, “Oh, well, why don't we talk more about transgender or homosexuality or adultery, right?” And we've got to be honest and forthright about all these things. Well, Tim, thank you for spending this time with us. Thanks for letting us sort of eavesdrop on the life of a pastor in the midst of an ultra-progressive community that is saying, “We love our community. We understand nine out of ten people would not agree with a biblical view of life or truth.” And yet, when you love people and when you live out the truth, and not just in these areas of sexuality, but you know, I see what you do for the poor. I see what the church is doing in coming together and remodeling schools and beautiful days in parks and helping refugees. You know, I think that's shining your light before men that they might glorify their Father in heaven.

TIM: And I would encourage all of your listeners, we don't have to be afraid. I know the culture is changing so fast and it scares us. But all of these books of the Bible were written in times and cities that were so much more countercultural than now.

CHIP: Yes.

TIM: And look what God did. He took that band of followers and it's changed the world. So we don't have to be afraid, that the truth still the truth. God is still on His throne and He can use us in this culture beyond our expectation because it was all based on Him to begin with.

CHIP: Well, I feel prompted as we close, Father, You know where every person is listening to this broadcast right now. And You know where some are stuck, where some are addicted, where some are worried, where some that just confused and don't know what to do. Almighty God, thank You that Your grace is available. You say in Psalm 86, O Lord, You are so good. You are so kind. You are so ready to forgive all those who call upon You for help. Lord, my heart's desire, and I know it's Yours, would You speak to the minds and the hearts of those listening right now with whatever they're carrying, whatever the burden, whatever the load, whatever the boulder, could they just pause and get some time to get away and get alone, I mean, soon with You and just cry out for help and then listen quietly, and know that You’re going to respond? Thank You for this time with Tim. Thank You that there's great churches all across America. Lord, would You help us to love people well and to live the truth in Jesus' name, amen.