Grace & Truth: Helping Our Kids Navigate Today’s Sexual Confusion

CHIP: Well, I'm really excited about today's program. We've done literally five weeks on this series. We've called Uninvited Guests Recognizing and Resisting the Attacks on Your Family. And as the family goes, the world goes, society goes. And people who love Jesus with all their heart are finding themselves in some really challenging times. So we’ve talked about the lies that we all believe in our marriages, and if we don’t recognize what they are and address ‘em, things don’t go in a good way. And we’ve talked about, all the issues around being parents. And, I think when we get down to some of the things that our kids are experiencing, I realize there's people that God has placed, in my life and in the body of Christ that have a lot more to say than I do. And they work very closely with the next generation.

And as I think of parents and grandparents and fellow pastors that listen to the program, our goal is to serve you. Our goal is to really help you and some of the things that, uh, your kids are facing, transgender issues, Mom and dad, Hey, I think I'm gay. Or as a young woman came to me after one of the services, If you're asking me to choose what the Bible says versus giving up my friends, because they're homosexual." And of course I was telling her, not give up your friends, but taking a stand about what's true and loving your friends. She just looked at me and said, "Well, I'm just giving up my faith." And so my guest today is Sean McDowell. He's a professor at Biola, author of many books. And you're with young adults all the time. You travel, you speak. You are much more in tune with the culture that I am. I just know there's a lot of people that are hurting and need help, and that's our goal

SEAN: Well honored to be on. Thanks for having me back.

CHIP: Well, it's good to have you with us, and let me just jump in because what we're going to talk about is not, parents that don't go to church regularly or families that are in crisis; there may be that. But people that have come into my world recently, that are more committed to Christ, their marriage, raising their kids God's way who have had these kind of situations. So Sean, what do you say to that parent when their kid says completely outta the blue? "Mom, Dad, I, I just want you to know I'm gay" or I'm, I'm trans now. I, I really believe that I am man trapped in a girl's body or vice versa.

SEAN: That's such a great question. You know, it's interesting you asked this Chip, because probably about two or three years ago, I interviewed a lady by the name of Arielle Scarcella, and she describes herself as the OG lesbian, YouTube content creator. I just wanted to hear her story and see if we could find some common ground. So I said , you know, if you have any questions for a theology professor who's an evangelical, I'll give you the opportunity at the end. I had no idea what she was gonna ask me. Her one question was myself and many in my community would wanna know, how would you respond if one of your kids came out as gay? And I had been thinking about this and actually made a social media post on it like a week or two before. And I said, my response would be, I'd say to my son or daughter, thanks for telling your Dad. I can't imagine how long you've been thinking about this and wrestling with this, and probably have some fear about how your Dad would respond, given who I am and positions that I hold. I want you to know that I love you no matter what. This doesn't change that I'm your dad, you're my son, my daughter. I love you, and we're in this together for the long haul. Interestingly enough, she said something to effect of, she goes, wow, that was beautiful. When this is out, I'm gonna share it with my community. And she shared the link.

CHIP: Wow.

SEAN: Now, one thing I would say to parents is if you haven't responded that way and you're like, you know what, I wish I had heard that a while ago. Give yourself some grace. We absolutely need biblical fidelity and we need truth, I would never question that. But on this issue, give yourself some grace. So if your kid comes to you and says, I'm bi, I'm gay, I'm trans, I'm fill in the blank, your first thought cannot be, what did I do wrong? How did I fail him? Give yourself some grace. I think there's a lot of reasons why we can blame ourselves. Some could be bad theology sometimes in the church that says, if I just do A, B and C as a parent, I'm going to get this product of a kid who will follow the Lord. And that's just bad theology, it doesn't work that way. People have free will. It could be some of our own, sinfulness and our, our pride of our kids being a certain way 'cause they represent us. I mean, there can be a lot of things going on. But bottom line is give yourself some grace. Don't blame yourself, just love on your kid and take a long term perspective and assure 'em early on that you're gonna stand by him and love him as Jesus did. That's kind of step number one.

CHIP: As I think back of my, uh, more current experiences, and the very thing you described was, What did I do wrong? My son came back from college, or my daughter came back from school and said they're, they're, trans or they're gay. And I'm devastated, what happened? You know, I've walked with God. We had family devotions and they start going through all the different things as a family, as though if they would have done it perfectly then, our kids are gonna turn out like these wonderful following Jesus, they'll never have a problem. Compassion has to be number one. It's not like your 21-year-old or 16-year-old, or 24-year-old, has all of life figured out, and now they know this is exactly who they are. They're in a world of real confusion. And yet it doesn't change the reality of there is truth and God's plan for their life. How do you move from the first step of compassion, not blaming yourself or focusing inward to, where do we go from here?

SEAN: Well, I think the next step is just to ask a lot of questions and to listen. You know, to highlight what you said before, if like a kid comes out you at 12, that's very different than one at 18 or 24 for so many different reasons. Our authority, they're still living in the home. There's just different dynamics at play there. But I would just, ask a lot of questions and you know, make sure it's the right environment. You know, sometimes kids have been thinking about this for weeks or months or years. Sometimes parents suspect it and see it come and sometimes it's just dropped out of the blue. So it's fair to just say, you know what, you've probably been thinking about this for a while. This is new to me and I, I think, it might take your mom and I a little bit to process and figure out how to navigate this and what that looks like.

I don't know what it all means, but I know I love you. I know I'm committed to you. I know I wanna do the right thing. Be the best parent to you that I can, that's completely reasonable to share. And say, but before I say anything, tell me when. When did you first feel this way? Have you told anybody else? How did they respond? How did you think we were going to respond as your parents? In your mind, just so we understand, what do you think it looks like for us to love you? Does this affect the way you think about Jesus and following after Him? And at the end, your last question can be, I'm outta questions. Is there anything I should have asked you? Is there anything else you wanna tell me?

And just affirm that we have an open door here and I'd love it if we stay on the same page moving forward. I mean, I could think of a hundred questions, but I'm just gonna listen and listen and try to understand where this young person is. Because this young person might be saying, 'I'm gay and if you don't affirm me, you're out.' That's a very different conversation than I have same sex attraction, I don't know what to do this. And I wanna follow Jesus and follow what the Bible says. Like that's just a very different dynamic. And so I wanna figure out where the kid is. You know, in the Bible, we have 340 questions that Jesus asked in the Gospels and Acts, and in Paul's letters there's 262. There's something powerful about questions.

CHIP: I, I had one, set of parents do something. I don't know if they got it from a counselor, but it was very, very effective because there was a lot of resistance and there was a lot of, are you gonna try and talk me out of this? And the parents said, can we have scheduled each week, an hour of safe space?

SEAN: Wow.

CHIP: It's just a safe space. I get to ask you anything, you can ask me anything. I'm not going to try to convince you, but I really want to understand it's just a safe time. And it was like, what's the logic behind this? And if this is true, what does this have to do with Jesus and your faith? And it was really interesting that that built, a level of understanding, that doesn't mean everything is great, but it really did allow a sense of being honored. I care. I respect you. But Sean, what do you say to that parent, ‘I have done that, that's the journey that we're on, but I have a fairly hostile, maybe even a bit militant son or daughter that basically says, 'Look: I'm gay. I'm trans. This is who I am. If you don't accept me, you don't love me. You're wrong and you're outta my life'. And now you see parents at a real crossroads where, either they don't know what to do or they assume all the blame. And I've seen a lot of parents change their theology based on, the response of their children. Or they've returned kind of anger for anger, and you just have this great divide. How do you maintain that biblical fidelity? I'd like to say it's only a few, there are thousands and thousands of people in the midst of this right now.

SEAN: So I appreciate that you said maintain your theology. I have been to affirming conferences. I've read almost all of the books and behind almost all the stories, there's almost always a relationship that is there. My son came out as gay. My sister came out as a lesbian, my spouse, my fill in the blank. And part of me on a human level, like I get it. These are people we love and we care for and we've sacrificed for, and I know so many moms and dads are like, I just wanna be in a relationship with my kid. It pains me. But Jesus is really clear in John 14, "If you love me, you'll obey my commands." From Genesis to the end, the Bible's very clear that God's design for sex and marriage is one man and one woman, one flesh one lifetime. And so it might not feel like it in the moment, but holding firm to what the Bible teaches is the loving thing to do. Absolutely. It's a loving thing to do. Now, how you navigate the relationships and when it means to share that, not that's where wisdom comes in. But my first thing to say to parents is, time out. If you're tempted to compromise your theology, that is not biblical. That is not loving. That is really not helpful when it's all said and done.

CHIP: One value of now doing ministry for 40 years is I've watched multiple times where people "cave in" change their theology. It's okay. And in the short term, it provides relief. In the long term, it provides pain and regret and devastation and hurt. And what parents don't seem to be able to get is there are times where our loyalty is challenged. And is our loyalty to Jesus, higher than our loyalty to a son, a daughter, or a mate even? I've sat with people who, my brother came out. My brothers and sisters, my parents now have changed their theology. I'm the outlier now. I'm the bad person in the family who's held to a biblical ethic. I've been kind to my brother, I've reached out to my brother, but this is my world. There is a price to pay for loyalty to Jesus.

It's interesting, I just providential had a conversation yesterday with a, a father whose daughter came out as gay many years ago, got married, adopted kids. Her mate became an alcoholic, that relationship didn't work out. But every time there's been a crisis, it's so interesting. She comes to the one person, that has kept their convictions and loved her regardless, but was unwilling to bend his theology or change his thinking. So he's been sort of the bad person in some early years, and now he's that one person you can trust. You know, when we hurt really badly, we're looking for someone that we can really trust who doesn't kind of blow with the wind in terms of their view of things. Any words of wisdom for that person who's taking a stand and, and really struggling with maintaining it.

SEAN: Oh gosh. First off, I would just say I get it. I understand because of what's at stake. I would find solace in other believers who are doing the same thing. Sometimes we feel like when we're doing stuff alone, it's just so painful. But one of my encouragements to really to anybody who is experiencing same sex attraction, doesn't know how to navigate this, is to point towards people who are faithfully following Jesus- whether as singles or as married to somebody of the opposite sex. People like Christopher Yuan, Sam Albury, Rachel Gilson. I mean, I could go on and on with people who've been open about same -sex attraction saying, I didn't choose this. I don't exactly know why. It's part of my experience of life, but I'm gonna stay faithful and still follow Jesus. Those are examples I wanna point to who doesn't know that they can do this faithfully.

Now, if I may to your question before, the parent who's struggling with a kid who just says, if you don't affirm, you know you're out. And I've had these conversations. I think my principle is I want to be in my life, and I'm not saying I always do this, Chip, this is my principle I strive for. I wanna be as gracious as I can be without violating Scripture, or my conscience before the Lord. So this parent just has to ask, What hills am I dying on and why? Am I being as gracious as I can be towards my child? So as painful as it is, I can put my head on my pillow at night and just say, God, I trust you. I'm acting in a way that I think is loving, but I am sticking with what Your Word says is true. And sometimes I've seen parents die on the wrong hills. We won't even meet my son and his boyfriend, for dinner 'cause I don't wanna affirm that. I'm like, you know, for me, I don't think having dinner with somebody means you're affirming that. I wouldn't interpret it that way. Staying overnight in the same room, in your home, now we're getting a lot closer to hills that I would die on. And you've gotta figure out what they are.

CHIP: Right.

SEAN: Really what happens in a lot of these circumstances is it just causes a lot of soul searching and it's painful for parents. And sometimes it can service our own insecurities and our weaknesses. And I just encourage parents to go before the Lord and say, help me be as gracious as I can be. Die on the right hills and just love my child through this.

CHIP: Well, every situation certainly has its own dynamic. And the reality is, you need to have a conviction from God's Word and the Holy Spirit that you're standing on, not what so and so thinks. Because at the end of the day, we all have this moment where we stand before God on what did we do with all the things that came in our life? And we need to make those on the basis of what our convictions are before the Lord.

Shifting a little bit, let's say a kid goes to a really good Bible teaching church. And they've heard this is what's true marriage is one man, one woman. But they personally start questioning some things and they start going down a path. It seems to me that those kind of kids with those kind of struggles have a very difficult time unless the church and parents, and youth leaders have a sensitivity to creating some safe environments where they can have conversations, that honestly can be of great help. But if it's not safe, they can get pretty hardened in their views thinking, 'Well, I know I'm gonna be rejected.' And so what do you say to, maybe churches or youth pastors or even parents about, a culture where instead of this one event that a bomb's ready to explode inside of a kid's heart, you create a world where the beginning doubts could be addressed and open conversations could be had.

SEAN: I think there's some overlap, but it can also look different in a church than it can in the home. I've done, pretty extensive research on the studies of why kids leave the faith or the church that they're raised in. And there was a study, it's about a decade old now, Oxford University Press book, Faith in Families by a USC Professor Verne Bankston. It was with 3,500 people, 35 years, four generations. And they said the number one factor on kid adopting the faith of his family and his parents, regardless of what that faith is, is a "Warm relationship with the father." And when you hear like warm relationship in a scholarly book, I was like what do you mean warm relationship? It means a sense of intimacy and closeness. That starts on day one. And so long before this kid is wrestling with issues of sexuality or their beliefs about it. Am I spending time with my kids? Am I listening to them? Am I building a closeness with them? That's number one. And then just, create a culture in your home where you can talk about stuff. One of the brilliant things my dad did, Chip, is he had practiced how he would respond if myself or my three sisters said, 'Dad, I'm gay.' 'Dad, I'm pregnant. Dad, I'm dropping outta school;' whatever it is.

And he had just practiced his response ahead of time and built relationships with us. Anticipated, if something like that happened, he could respond with grace. And I thought, what great foresight. You know the other thing in the home is if you want your kids to talk to you about this, you've gotta develop kind of a talking conversing relationship where you just talk with them about things that are important to them. Talk to them about life. Just talk and talk, including spiritual things. It's not a one-way conversation where I just lecture my kids. They're not going to open up to you. So build that relationship, start early, converse over the dinner table about spiritual things, but just life, movies, sports, drama, whatever the kids are into.

I had a young man this is a few years ago now come out to me and I said, Why am I the first person to? Why haven't You told your parents? And he said, I just heard some statements they made now and then that I think are homophobic. Just comments about the news, about people, about individuals. And he remembers those. So we gotta watch the way we speak.

You know, I've got three kids, so I'll generalize this, but over the years I've heard my kids say terms they've picked up on the playground about someone. And I go, you know what? We just don't speak about people that way. They're made in God's image. Let's not use that language. God loves them, just like he loves you and me. And I wanna instill in my kids that if they ever are wrestling with that question, they feel like, oh, dad's got my back. So those are a few things in the home I think you can do.

I'm somewhat torn, like I'm in a classroom and I wanna a safe place, but I don't. I tell my students, come to office hours. Tell 'em what you think. I'll listen to you. If I disagree, I might push back. But I wanna understand and have a conversation. I'm no interested in having an argument. Please come talk with me if you differ. Like I say that over and over again, but I don't want so much a safe space where I can't challenge 'em and make 'em think and make 'em a little uncomfortable 'cause that's when you learn. So there, there's a balance there where you want some tension to learn, but you want people to know, I love you and I care about you no matter what you believe when it's all said and done.

In the church, I think it's really important, One is churches have to have a doctrinal statement. They need to have a statement, not just on this issue, but this is one of the big issues of the day. I was reading Chip about someone, who went to a church for a while and didn't even know what the church believed about L-G-B-T-Q issues until like two or three years into it. And felt like she was kind of betrayed because they presented a certain way and didn't believe that.

And I thought, you know what? We gotta have a statement and make it clear. The staff needs to know like, what's our bathroom policy? What's our pronoun policy? What's our policy of going to same-sex wedding? It's like you just have to think these things through as a staff and be on the same page about it. And the staff's gonna need some training. A lot of people don't have time to work through content and learn what the Bible says and why. Most people growing up in the church know what the church believes and the Bible says, but they don't know why. They don't actually have convictions about it that run deep. So churches, doctrinal statements, they need to teach on this. But why God's design for marriage is good for the world, good for society, good for kids. That 'why' is something churches have to do.

CHIP: If you were walking through, some passages that teach about sexuality and why it is God's plan for thriving. Because we somehow forget that the whole goal of someone who has made you and loves you, this is not about restrictions. This is about Jesus wants you to flourish and there's some guidelines and guardrails to allow you to flourish. Not out of some pressed down obedience, but out of a concern, a care, and knowing that there's lots of off paths that will take you down, places that you can't see now, but bring a lot of pain. If you were walking through, passages that people really need to understand and you would say to this person, you should at least study these for yourself, where would you take 'em?

SEAN: Almost every ethical issue, there's a core question. So with abortion, the question is, what is the unborn? If it's not a human being, no justification is necessary. If it is, then when is it ever okay to take the life of an innocent human being? That's the question. When it comes to issues of sexuality, the question is, is there a God who's designed us to live and function a certain way and has this, God made that known? Now as Christians, we believe it's known by natural law. Looking at the world, looking at our bodies, there's just certain truths built into the world. But we also see that in Scripture, that's where Genesis starts. In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth. So in illustration, I'll use my smartphone. I'll say there's a designer for the smartphone. It's not to go parachuting or to make waffles, and it's not, a scuba tank. It's designed for a purpose, and I gotta understand what that purpose is and use it accordingly.

Well, the Bible starts with telling us that God is a creator. He's the designer of the world, of our bodies, of sex. We see in Genesis one, God made them male and female said, populate and fill the Earth. So we are 'sexed' beings. Built into our bodies, we are male and we are female. And then Genesis 2 it says, A man leaves his Father and Mother. So God's design for the home is that it's a father and mother marriage is a sexed institution. And then of course, that's the means by which they populate and fill the Earth. That creation account at the beginning is consistently pointed back towards in the Old Testament and the New Testament as being normative for how we're supposed to live. So even in Leviticus chapter 18, which is not one I would turn towards primarily, but when it talks about same sex, sexual behavior being wrong, it uses the language for, you know, a male shall not lie with another male; it's an abomination.

The language that is used is reminiscent of the creation account that they were made, male and female, and there's a design for the human body. You go to the New Testament, you see the same thing. Jesus, when asked about marriage in Matthew 19. He's really asked about divorce. What does he do? He points back to Genesis one and points back to Genesis two, saying, don't you know it is written, in the beginning, God set it up to be this way. So Jesus is affirming the ongoing relevance of the original creative design of marriage. One man, one woman, one flesh, one lifetime. Even in Romans chapter 1, when Paul gives a very clear condemnation of idolatry when he talks about creation reveals the Creator, but people suppress the truth. And then he gives an example in Romans 1:26 and 27 pointing towards the creation of our bodies and people see it and know it, but suppress it in same sex sexual behavior. If you read that passage, he's pointing back towards the creation account specifically just like Jesus did, saying this is normative for our behavior.

So that's why it's not what we would call adiaphora in Romans 14, where it's an agree to disagree issue like the day we worship on or food, sexuality is never. Ever placed in that category. It is unequivocally and universally condemned, which is why inActs 15 at the Jerusalem Council, they're like, how much of the law carries over to Gentiles? And one thing they say is avoid sexual immorality, which is pornea, which would've included of course, adultery and fornication and same sex sexual behavior. So creation account in Genesis 1, I think Matthew 19 with Jesus, and then Romans 1, because both Jesus and Paul point back towards that creative norm. Those are the key passages that I go to, when talking with people.

CHIP: Great summary, Sean. I don't like this phrase, but let me now play the Devil's advocate.

SEAN: Do it.

CHIP: Because often, what happens is, Mom and dad, I really get where you're coming from. You gimme all those Bible passages. What you don't understand is, I don't believe the Bible anymore. So your argument from the Bible, it really doesn't carry any weight. And by the way, this isn't a confused 16-year-old, this is a 24-year-old who's saying, I don't wanna hear anything about the Bible. I don't believe in marriage. We happen to be living together, or I have a same sex relationship, or I'm viewing the world completely different. This one man, one woman. I don't think you can make a case for that. That's just old, outdated religion. Sean, what do you say to that parent thinking okay, where do we go from here?

SEAN: So if somebody goes, well, the Bible is not true, I guess you have two options here. Either you lean into the Bible being true or Jesus being God, or you lean into making a case for marriage apart from the Bible. And I'm not saying there's better or worse, I think there's a time and place for both. If I had my choice in most circumstances, I'd probably say, let's take a step back and let me ask you a question. If there were a creator who designed you to live a certain way and this Creator had made himself known, would you listen to that Creator and be open to that? And I've had people say, "No." I'm like, "Okay, this is at least helpful where you stand." Most people are going to say yes. Because the question of sexuality is really downstream from whether or not there is a God and whether Jesus is God, and whether we're gonna follow His Word. So I'm never gonna shy away from what the Bible teaches about sexuality. I think we need to speak that clearly and not pretend otherwise. But I'm gonna say, tell me why you don't believe in the Bible. Tell me who you think Jesus actually is.

So I'm probably gonna typically go that direction. Do you believe in God? Who do you think Jesus was? Why or why not? Rather than making a case necessarily for marriage. Now, I do think we can make a case for marriage without using the Bible, just like we can make a case for life without using the Bible. Probably the best book on this is called What Is Marriage? There's three authors and one of 'em is Ryan Anderson and they just make a case from natural law about what marriage is. And you, you can kind of point to, you know, the Bible talks about one flesh. But without using this language, it's pretty obvious that male and female are both human, but have different bodily designs that come together in a way that a man and a man and a woman and a woman, don't. It's a fundamentally different kind of relationship. It's the kind of relationship that is oriented towards to use biblical language, populating and filling the Earth.

It is a distinctly different relationship than a father son, than a friend, than a tennis partner, than a business partner, than a man and a man. In fact, every biological function you can perform as an individual. Digestion, respiration, blood circulation, except for one, and that's reproduction. That takes a man and a woman, as if they each have half of the system come together as one towards making babies. This is a distinct, different kind of relationship than any other kind of relationship that's out there. That's one point that you can make, and I think it's hard to avoid.

And then second, ask the question, why is it that governments are so interested in regulating this relationship but not other relationships? And the answer is, 'cause this relationship is what produces the next generation. And for governments to survive and thrive and flourish, they actually need another generation. We have a birth dearth right now, and it's actually a massive concern for civilized countries around the world, how few people are having kids. And our government right now is trying to find ways to motivate people to have more babies for the sake of civilization.

So, sometimes it takes a little unpacking, which is why this is not typically the first step that I would make. But you know, just questions like, why is the government interested in this relationship that's distinct- historically, not for political reasons. Do you recognize that this union and what it produces is objectively different than a man and a man and a woman. And a woman? And historically, why has there been this sense of marriage pretty much universally 'cause it seems to be built into the world. These are the kinds of questions and ways you could take that conversation if helpful.

CHIP: You know, these are significant issues and problems that we're living with today. It's interesting to me that some of the things that allow that bridge of relationship- and the kind of conversations that we're having right now, are the kind of conversations you really wanna have with preteens.

SEAN: Amen.

CHIP: That are just open-ended dialogue. But it means that you actually, this is a wild suggestion, but that as a family, at least three or four times a week, you actually eat together. That you actually turn off screens and phones and TV and you're not in a car going from one sport activity to the next activity or leaving this practice to go to the other practice. I mean, sometimes we so narrowly think of, wow, we have these issues with trans or LGBT or rebellion with children and we don't step back to say, well, what kind of flow and life and pace and conversation has to be a part of a family for these kind of things to ever come up rather than the crisis moment. And uh, I think part of my heart's desire behind this whole series is, for moms and dads and single parents to say, when I look at the activities of our family, are these building warm, deep relationships? Is there any margin?

Does my five-year-old really need to be on a formal soccer team? And it goes back to a lot of what are you really trying to produce in your home and what does it take to do that? It seems that we've kinda lost some of the fabric of the most basic things that allow for our kids to have time and thought, to even ask these kind of questions. And that a mom or dad that is proactively thinking, What books are we gonna read together? What shows are we gonna watch together? What conversations do I wanna make sure that we have? You know, I, I pastored all these years and I'm out in front of groups of people telling them this is what Scripture says, and this is the kind of marriage and this kind of family.

And then I went home, you know, and it was this weight of, "Well Chip, how are, how are you doing living out, what you're telling others. And of course none of us can do this perfectly, but that can't be an excuse for not saying, as Prof Hendricks used to say, one of my mentors, if it's not working at home, don't export it. And what he really meant was, Hey guys, you can't live with an awareness that the things you're telling other people, you're not putting into practice. So as you, kind of put your arm around those that are listening some are people that have young kids. Some are saying, wow, I wish I would've done this, what are some characteristics of creating the kind of family and relationships.

And you know, let's face it, a, a great majority of Christian or non-Christian, they've been through a divorce, they've been through a challenge, or their parents were divorced. It's really hard if you haven't seen it. My situation was, my parents weren't Christians and my dad was an alcoholic, and how do you learn that when you didn't see it? Well, there's ways, but you have to be pretty intentional. Is there a game plan or something you've seen as you meet students that you think, I'm not sure exactly what their parents did, but somebody did something kind of right. Have some help for our listeners?

SEAN: That's such a great question. You know, it's interesting you asked this Chip, because my dad's story was very much like yours, and I asked him, I'm like, how did you learn how to be a good parent and husband? He goes, son, I just plagiarized. Meaning I watched people who did it well, and I hung out with them and spent time with them and learned how to do it by osmosis. And I think that's just such good, humble advice. There's no formula for parenting, I mean, just like there's no formula for spiritual parenting, right? Jesus, let the rich young ruler walk away. He wept over Jerusalem because so many would not accept and believe in Him.

But I think there's research in biblical precedent for being faithful. And when we're faithful, it gives us the best chance of seeing our kids also be faithful. I think it's the only way we can put it. And number one, the data shows, if we want our kids to adopt our faith, we've got a model of faith that's worth emulating for them. If they think we're hypocrites, if they think, we just don't really believe it and live it out. And if they're not drawn to the kind of say marriage or life that we have, it doesn't matter what we say: Christianity has lost credibility in their eyes. And I'm not telling parents to be perfect, kids don't expect their parents to be perfect.

If I had a dollar, every time I apologize to my kids, I could retire So the first thing is to look in the mirror, and say, am I modeling this, for my kids? And if you're like, yeah, I think I am, you know, a painful way to find out is to ask your kids however old they are, and just be willing to listen humbly. And they might give you some, difficult pie to swallow, but bottom line, model it. Number two, like we talked about earlier, build relationships with your kids. More important than anything, when it's all said and done, time and intimacy and closeness and a relationship with your kids where you just cherish and enjoy them and have fun with them.

Build that close relationship and not just one way where I take my kids to do what I'm doing, you spend time with them, what they care about, build relationships. And then third, look for opportunities to have conversations with them about faith issues that matter. Kind of like, you know, Deuteronomy 6:4 it talks about love the Lord, Your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. Talk about these things, when you wake up, when you lie down when you walk along the way, when you sit down in the home. In other words, in the rhythm of life, you look for opportunities.

So if we're ever watching a movie, a friend of mine, I haven't done it quite like this, but they play a game called Spot the Lie. Where they just teach their kids, oh, that's a lie about marriage. That's a lie about God. That's a lie about happiness. Now, if you do that too much, your kids won't wanna watch movies with you, but you wanna do it some, right? So I'd, I'd watch The Flash show of my kids years ago, and we just kind of stop and, Hey, how's this being portrayed? What do you think and we'd move on. That was more the exception, but I just taught 'em to recognize certain themes that are in the film. So having that conversation, with your kids.

Now, of course, being involved in a church is key. That's a part of it, but I would profoundly caution parents from just assuming that the church is doing it. I just interviewed Abby Johnson, who's the former Planned Parenthood director who left Planned Parenthood and now is a pro-life advocate because she saw an abortion performed right in front of her and it jarred her. She had never seen it before. Her story's incredible in the movie "Unplanned," and she's like, Sean, I grew up in a Christian home and the church assumed my parents were talking about these things. My parents assumed the church was. So no one really talked to me about these issues and was just taken in my Planned Parenthood in college 'cause it looked fun and they had cool colors and gave her a cause and, you know, she fell into it. So build a relationship with your kids, model what it looks like. Take your kids consistently to church, but have regular, ongoing spiritual conversations with them.

Last thing I would say is I also look for very strategic opportunities to engage my kids. So I'll give you one with each of my kids. So I'll start. My oldest son, when he was 14, he wanted to see that movie, "Bohemian Rhapsody", about the rock band Queen. It's PG 13. So I didn't love some of the content in it, but it was not an R-rated movie. And so I said, buddy, here's the deal. I'll take you and a friend and I'll drop a hundred dollars on popcorn and tickets. And, uh, I said, my only condition is when we're done, if we'll just sit down and talk about it afterwards. That's it. He goes, okay. Took him to the movie. We sat down 25, 30 minutes at the dinner table after the movie, and I just asked him questions. Hey, what'd you enjoy about the movie? What surprised you? Who was your favorite character? What was your favorite scene? Are there any things Christians we can affirm in this movie? Are there any times you felt preached at anything we would give pause to? And we just talked about it. He's the kind of kid that would respond to that.

My daughter, she wanted these Birkenstock shoes, which are just like not cheap. And I said, all right. Tell you what, if you read this book Chasing Love and just make some notes and then we go to coffee and just talk about it for an hour, I'll buy you the shoes. And she goes, dad, there's an outlet I could get two for the price one. I'm like, you can get three for the price one. I don't care if you can find a good deal. And so she read it. She read the whole book and we just went out and I talked, what's your favorite chapter? What surprised you? What'd you learn? What do you think about this? And we just talked about it together.

My younger son when he was eight. The word, abortion popped up He goes, dad, what's abortion? Well, some parents would change the subject. I'm like, here's an opportunity. Let's lean in and with this opportunity, here's what abortion is. Why did a woman get abortion? And in my best mind explained to an 8-year-old. What is meant by it? So the, the point with my daughter and my two sons is I'm just looking for opportunities to engage my kids.

My younger son just three months ago wanted this E-bike. It's all the rage in Southern California. They're like bikes and they have batteries on 'em. So they go faster and it's not cheap. And I said, tell you what, if you watch these videos from the Colson Center, these five minute videos or like PragerU videos. Each one I'll give you like $10 towards your bike, but you gotta watch it and take notes and you gotta talk to me about it. And he did a few dozen of them and some of these were on issues of sexuality. He did two or three on LGBTQ issues and he wanted the bike, gave me a chance to talk with them about it and teach 'em. So in summary, let me just say model for your kids, build relationships with them, get 'em involved in a good church consistently as you can. Have regular conversation with them and just look for opportunities consistently to engage 'em on these issues.

CHIP: I've heard you more and more and more say, ask questions, ask questions. That's different than go read this. Go to the Sunday school class. This is what it says. This is what we believe, and I'm afraid you won't. And so I put pressure on you, ask questions. And then I would just say for those who may be thinking are you saying bribe your kids to get good information and interaction with them? Are you really saying that? And I want to answer that question: Yes. Okay. I mean, everything you just described, I did with my kids.

SEAN: I love it.

CHIP: And it was around their interests.

SEAN: That's right.

CHIP: And it was like, a commercial happens and I just push pause and say, what do you think they're selling? If they're selling toothpaste, then how are they trying to get us to buy it? Do you think that if you use that toothpaste, that the greatest looking guy or the greatest looking girl in high school is gonna jump in your red convertible. No dad. Well then why did they do that? And they start looking at things with a skeptical what's behind it, what's the presupposition is what you're really trying to teach him. And I found even the things that are really black and white they pick up on quickly. It was some other movies or shows where, it was very subtle and you realize that, we've been sitting here and we're rooting for this guy and I feel like I'm rooting for this guy. But so far he's lied. He's committed adultery, he's abandoned his own wife. But they've created this narrative that is just hard not to root for him. What you're really helping them to do is learn to think and to process. Sean, thank you so much for what you're doing. I really appreciate you walking our listeners through some really challenging things.

SEAN: Well thanks for what You do and for a wonderful conversation. Enjoyed every minute of it.

CHIP: Well, we'll do it again as God allows. Keep pressing ahead my friend.